John Whitehead

Interviewer: Ok so, if we could just start - right - with the basics, really. So if you could tell me your name and spell your name also, please.

John: It’s John Whitehead, which is J-O-H-N W-H-I-T-E-H-E-A-D.

Interviewer: Thank you. And could you tell me your date of birth and place of birth, please.

John: It’s the 23rd of March 1937, and I was born in Hornchurch in Essex.

Interviewer: And could you just tell me a little bit about your own background in music, like early background, and maybe even a bit about your parents if they were involved in music or what they did? [00:40]

John: Well I was in a choir, a church choir, so that was the first involvement. And then at… I went to a technical school. And we travelled – by train – ten miles to and from the school. And for some reason, I can’t think why, three of us bought harmonicas. And we used to treat the school run [as a] sort of practice. And it must… It was probably terrible for the other passengers, but we thoroughly enjoyed it… And from then on, I guess that led into skiffle, which… by then… people like Lonnie Donegan and Ken Colyer were producing skiffle and by that time I was interested in jazz and decided… with the other schoolmates to form a skiffle group, which probably ran for about three years. We did some working [men’s] clubs and various places around… Until that… it didn’t exactly fizzle out, but I guess we wanted to move on. And the decision was to form a jazz band, but unfortunately it never materialised, but I went out and bought a trumpet. And… and then that was interrupted by National Service, which was for two years, and I was in the Army for two years, which didn’t involve any music whatsoever for me. Coming out… of the Army, I used to go regularly to a pub in Barking called The Britannia, to watch a band of people… my age and – but they had been playing probably for about eight years and were becoming very good, and the band was called the Whitebridge Jazz Band. And while I was there I… in the audience, I met some other people, and they happened to be the remnants of the skiffle group from Upminster. So we had a skiffle group from Hornchurch and a skiffle group from Upminster and we decided to form a jazz band. And it… do you want me to continue… with that one?

Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. [03:06]

John: Ok. Well… that led to… we were all beginners. And it… I think… over a period of time, we did actually improve and we did get a little bit of work, and that was in 1962. And by the time we’d got to… 1966 there was quite a significant happening, and that was that our clarinet player emigrated to Australia… the drummer moved to New Orleans to take up a job at the University at Tulane, and… we acquired a pianist. And from that point in time, the… the band that had really been very loose in style settled down to a style that was really dictated more by the new clarinet player. Do you want me to name names?

Interviewer: You can, yeah. [04:12]

John: He was Bernard Stutt, and he and having a piano in the band did actually link us into the music of Morton, and Oliver and Jelly Roll… I’ve said Jelly Roll Morton, and Oliver… and [Louis] Armstrong, and that was the big change that we were… that we made… Shall I continue?

Interviewer: Yeah, you can.

John: Can you just remind me of… how far you wanted me to go?

Interviewer: So it’s literally just about your early background in music, anything you want to say about that, and whether or not your parents… what they did, if they had any instruments and that as well. [04:55]

John: My parents didn’t. Neither of them were musical. I think they both had reasonable voices in that they could sing in tune – because that’s a big advantage, especially if you’re a jazz musician. [laughs] And other than that, I don’t think there was anything from my home environment that led me into… into jazz. They certainly weren’t interested in… in jazz of any form. I should think that they were interested in dance music and popular music of the period – both of them.

Interviewer: Yeah. So it was mainly then your early start was more through school and then making connections along the way, then, would you say? [05:44]

John: Yes, yes… The connections were made and… I guess and that’s… probably how you get influenced into a style, particularly if you have in your head what you like to do. It isn’t always possible though because – if you’re a solo artist it’s possible – but when there’s six or seven of you in a band, it’s always a compromise.

Interviewer: Yeah. That’s definitely… I mean, your early… work really, particularly with the Frog Island Jazz Band, you kind of, like, seemed to learn things note for note and play it in that way. Was there a reason for that, would you say? [06:30]

John: I guess it… the reason being I think is what I said about the change in ‘66 where the style of music we were playing prior to that changed, and we were much more of a loose collection of people as far as styles was concerned than we suddenly became, because this music that we now like – liked, and still like – is more orchestral. And you have people like Jelly Roll Morton… they’re jazz composers. And… the… the music that they created requires almost a note for note effect, up to a point. And… once you get past that point, remembering that 78’s are only about two and a half minutes long, they were very limited in what they could put on those, and our performances probably go on for four or five minutes, each one…

Interviewer: Yeah

John: … So that means you’ve got somewhere between two and two and a half minutes of us inventing the extra material, so it isn’t note for note all the way.

Interviewer: Yeah, that was perfect. I was actually going to [ask about] the Frog Island Jazz Band – was there a particular reason for the name, as well? [07:59]

John: Oh, right... Yes, our… our first banjo player whose name is Ian Fullalove, who is the brother of Robert Fullalove, who is the tuba player – he’s [Rob] one of the original… oh, I didn’t say it… the original… musicians, and only two of the original now are still in the band, myself being one and Rob Fullalove on tuba being the other – His brother, when we started, was playing banjo, but at the same time he was also having flying lessons. And he got the pilot’s license and British European Airways got in the way of the jazz. [laughs]

Interviewer: [Laughs] As they do!

John: And so anyway, he became a pilot, and left. Before he left… it was his idea. Because at the time, I had been working for a firm that had a sports club very near Frog Island, and we used to practice in… in their social hall, and he thought, well we’re close to Frog Island, let’s give it the name. So it… he gave us the name and then left.

Interviewer: [Laughs] It’s a nice legacy, then. [09:17]

John: Yes. But…we… we had one or two clashes of opinion about the name because we were playing up in Leicester, and… someone came up and said – despite my accent – ‘So you’re a local band?’ and I said, ‘No, no, we come from Essex’, and he said, ‘Oh, we’ve got a Frog Island here in Leicester.’ And later, we were playing in… I think it was in a… beer… festival up in Empress Hall [clock chimes in background] or somewhere… somewhere in one of the big halls in London for the… CAMRA [Campaign for Real Ale], the real ale people, and there was a Frog Island Brewery there, and so… but they were from Northampton. So there are other Frog Islands but not the one that… that we’ve got in Essex.

Interviewer: That’s really interesting, thank you. So would you say, then, that the nature of your jazz activities over the years… has it mainly been the actual playing the music side of things, or have you done other things as well with your involvement in jazz - have you done anything else as well? [10:25]

John: … No it’s really just… involvement… I’ve never done the… the management side, that’s done by Rob Fullalove. He’s always done it but there again he started work as a salesman and he… was very good at the job. Although, from my point of view, I do actually direct the music on stage. That’s my job. I give solos and decide… on the hoof, as it were, how the… how the tune’s running. Because depending… who’s listening or who’s dancing, really [decides]… the length of the tune and who does what has to be adjusted accordingly, if you see what I mean.

Interviewer: Yeah, that makes sense. And what would you say is your primary instrument that you play over the years and now? [11:26]

John: Well primary, of course, because it’s for so long, is the cornet. But, having said about the harmonica and the skiffle group… In the skiffle group I did play a mandolin for a while. That really was… [because of] having listened to Alexis Korner, who was a fine mandolin player. But…that doesn’t fit into a New Orleans jazz band. [laughs]

Interviewer: [Laughs] No… Thank you. So what would you say that over your career has motivated you to keep investing in your particular activities in jazz generally? [12:05]

John: I… I guess it’s the feeling of trying to recreate as near as you can – and failing a lot of the time… the sound of New Orleans in the 1920s… The... I didn’t mention it previously but of course, the… all of those bands that we aspire to are 1920’s bands, and a lot of them, of course, were playing prior to that. But, of course, recordings weren’t available to… certainly to black musicians, until 1918 or ‘19 at the earliest. And… so we… we were looking for that sound of early 1920s, whereas in the 1940s and ‘50s in America there was a revival, and records were issued by the revival bands as well, of course, as the original early 1920[s] bands. So there’s a difference, there’s… there’s a considerable difference – so I guess we were homing in on the early style.

Interviewer: Yeah. And actually as well, because… I’m… I think I’m right in saying that you’ve played in both the US and the UK as well…

John: Yes.

Interviewer: Would you say that there’s a big difference in terms of audience and the musicians you play with and work with in different places, in terms of the UK and US? [13:37]

John: Yes, there is actually, because… In… we first went in 1980, playing in a festival in New Orleans, and… I think by then the Americans didn’t hear much of the 1920s music played live. So there was… I guess they were saying, well there’s still people doing what used to be done here, which was interesting. But I think in Europe… or UK, I don’t think we’ve got that, I think because… in the 1950s… ‘40s actually, ‘40s and ‘50s, there was a lot of bands that were popular that were playing the revival style rather than the 1920s. And a revival style quite often didn’t feature a piano, whereas the early music virtually [always] did include a piano, and… and we include a piano. We might have played for a while without one but most of the time we’ve been going, where possible, we’ve had a pianist.

Interviewer: Yeah. Is there a reason that you particularly… focus on the New Orleans style as opposed to other forms of jazz, that you can think of? [15:02]

John: No. I guess it’s… not from a playing point of view but from a listening point of view, I… I was quite interested in swing, people like the ‘big bands’: Ted Heath, Johnny Dankworth, Ronnie Scott, you know, big bands, [The] Squadronaires. I saw most of those as a teenager up at the Palladium. And then later the… New Orleans style musicians from America were coming over. I saw Louis Armstrong. I saw George Lewis. I saw Kid Ory, and… I preferred it, that style.

Interviewer: And would you say that you engaged with other forms of jazz over the years other than that, or has it mainly always been that same sort of style? [15:56]

John: Yes. Yeah.

Interview: Yeah. Ok.

John: I do… I like folk music, but that’s separate. I’ve never involved myself in folk music but I do like it.

Interviewer: Ok.

John: [Laughs]

Interviewer: And just, then, looking at the actual way that your musical activities are kind of organised and stuff like that, would you say that there’s a particular way that you coordinate your jazz activities and has that changed over the years? [16:21]

John: …I guess it has changed, because as we’ve all moved on, I think… the responsibilities of various people in the band have become more important. For example, our pianist Keith Durston does most of the arrangements, and also does… the initial chord sequence... because… he’s good at it. And I think that’s what it is, like Rob’s good at managing, and of course there’s some vocals involved, and we’ve got one or two people in the band who pretend to sing.

[Both laugh]

John: But… no, it’s a… it’s just a different… different role I guess.

Interviewer: Yeah. And would you say that you’ve had any particular… support over the years, or have you had any corporate sponsorship that’s helped with your musical activities? [17.21]

John: No…I…don’t think so… But we… we once got involved in opening a new… it was a paper making… plant in Sweden. And I don’t know whether [or not] we got any sponsor [money]… I don’t handle that side of the business, but we might have got some sort of sponsorship, but other than that, no. It’s all done on a fee basis, on the night generally, or the afternoon.

Interviewer: Yeah. And would you say that you’ve had any other forms of support over the years that have enabled you to keep playing as well, or [when you were] starting out? [18:05]

John: No. I guess one of our advantages – and not just us but other musicians – that were never professional, we might have had an occasional professional musician play with us, but the band as a unit has never been a professional band. In other words, everyone has had a day job. Of course that does complicate things at times, but we’ve all had… enough money to live on without requiring jazz to be the sole way of earning a living. So we haven’t really required it. I could imagine though, if you were a professional musician in a professional band, particularly when times are hard, I guess it could well have been required, but not for... The Frogs.

Interviewer: That’s fine. And how – and again, this may have changed over time – how would you communicate about when you’ve got gigs and the fact that you exist as a band as well… how would you get the word out there and has that changed? [19:19]

John: Well… it has changed over the years, but for a long, long time there’s been a magazine called Jazz Guide which publishes… monthly. And it has as many dates in it as musicians or clubs are provided… are prepared to provide them with and literally, it’s a diary of what’s on where, and it’s fantastic. It’s done month-by-month, area-by-area… We found really… that’s been going for a long time now. There was for a while a magazine that came from... in the Cambridge area… called Footnote which turned into New Orleans Music upon a change of editorship… And that did give some indication of what was on but nothing like Jazz Guide. That’s fantastic.

Interviewer: Yeah. Have you ever made use of things like radio or anything to do that or is it mainly been through those… [inaudible] [20:25]

John: No, I think we did occasionally get… some – not personal plugs – but there was…her name was [Bridget] Metcalfe on BBC Essex… I can’t remember her first name now. But on a Sunday, I think it was, she used to put out a weekly calendar of Essex jazz, but I don’t think that exists now, but I’m not sure.

Interviewer: That’s fine, thank you. And just finally on this kind of same vein, then, have there been any particular barriers over the years that you can think of to playing music or to getting gigs or anything really, any sort of barriers to your music? [21:07] John: No, I can’t… I don’t think so. I suppose some people might have said that their day job got in… got in the way occasionally, particularly if we had a long way to go… to play in the evening. And… I suppose the barriers also… are evident really more recently because of people moving, and musicians being replaced. Because for one thing, when we started it was a complete band of Essex people. Now, we’ve only got three in Essex, we have two in Hertfordshire, there’s one in Kent and one in Surrey… so we have spread out, and of course that makes linking up for lifts and things like that difficult. Not… as easy as it was when we were all local. I mean there was… at one time, there was occasions when would hire a minibus to go to a job… which was fine when we were all local, but it would mean finding a sort of central point now, and it wouldn’t…

Interviewer: Yeah. [laughs]

John: …it wouldn’t be economically viable. [laughs]

Interviewer: Thank you… So, in that sense then, how have you overcome that, so to speak, with that last point in particular I guess, that how is it that you still manage to keep on doing that when you all live in different places? [22:47]

John: Well, it does… it’s helped by the Kent and Surrey two… joining in if… when they can. It’s also helped by the Hertfordshire [person] and it’s also helped by the Essex connection, so it does work but it’s not as good as it used to be, put it that way, as far as convenience is concerned.

Interviewer: And in terms of like you said about like the day job thing as well then… did you find then that that was ever problematic? How did you overcome that, if like someone in the band had to work a bit longer? [23:24]

John: Well if... if it meant that it was out of the question that they could make the date, then there is always, and there always has been up to… up to now and still I hope, hopefully we can do it… what we call…we call them ‘deps’, a deputy who will stand in. It’s probably increasingly difficult now to find someone who is as compatible, because unfortunately a lot of musicians are either dying or moving on... moving out somewhere or retiring, even. I don’t think many amateur jazz musicians retire, but I suppose the pros do. But… and… that, of course, makes [finding] a replacement difficult.

Interviewer: Yeah. That makes sense as well, thank you. So you spoke a little bit about – well we spoke a little bit about – your main influence and your main style of music, then... But would you say that, going back a little bit, that rock ‘n’ roll or things like The Beatles had an impact at any point on your activities, or things like that? [24:39]

John: It…it certainly did. I... I think probably we’d only just started… We started in ‘62 so it didn’t affect us immediately, but it probably did down the line. But the musicians who were ten years older than us, it affected them a lot. Because people like [The] Rolling Stones and not the Beatles here but [The] Rolling Stones, were playing in clubs that were originally jazz clubs... And of course it knocked jazz off the charts in the late 50s, or middle 50s, late 50s, jazz was quite often top of the charts. Kenny Ball for example was in the charts a lot and Acker Bilk. And once the rock ‘n’ roll… got established then it must have affected them considerably. I… I can’t answer that properly because we were behind that, we were sort of running ten or twelve years behind them. And in fact, strangely enough, when the effects of the rock ‘n’ roll bands hit the jazz, it also affected the clubs that stayed with jazz because they weren’t… they weren’t getting new audiences, they couldn’t pay the pros – in actual fact I think that was when our band probably got established because we were able to provide the music and I… they wouldn’t think of paying us anywhere near what they paid the pros. It happened actually, and we… So in some ways it did affect us, but I imagine it was much worse for the older musicians.

Interviewer: That’s fine, thank you… And just as well about things to do with changes over time, would you say that jazz itself as a… as a music – and obviously the people playing jazz, and interacting with different people – do you think that had any impact on jazz musicians or the audience in terms of attitudes towards like, things like race, for instance? [27:01]

John: …I guess it did. Not so much here, but certainly… we… we went to New Orleans in 1980, and there was definitely a prejudice for [against] black musicians – even then. Not… it was really in… there were bars where they were accepted, and bars where they weren’t. And for example prior… this was before 1980, a friend of ours went to New Orleans and he… befriended a black musician. He... this particular person was a drummer and I imagine it would have been another drummer. They went for a drink and this friend of ours went up to the bar and ordered two… two drinks and he [the bartender] said, ‘I’ll serve you, but I’m not serving him.’

Interviewer: Yeah.

John: So, you know… and of course stories get back like that.

Interviewer: Yeah.

John: But I don’t think it’s affected us in any way really, because we’ve… it’s never happened I don’t think…

Interviewer: Yeah.

John: …No, I would imagine it would have been much worse in the United States.

Interviewer: Do you think it might have made people more open and accepting at a time maybe where things… like through listening to jazz and getting to know these people? [28:26]

John: Oh, I think it probably would do, any… certainly Louis Armstrong had a great effect with… on the public and opened out, I think, their opportunities…Yeah.

Interviewer: Thank you. So this one here, I’m not sure if it applies or not, really, but just to see whether or not at any point in your life, has your jazz ever been influenced by your own political views, or have you ever been involved in like trade unions or anything like that, and has that ever been linked with your jazz music? [29:00]

John: I... I was a draughtsman, and I was in the draughtsman’s union, but it doesn’t involve the music in any way really. I can’t… I can’t think of where it might have done. I can’t think... I don’t think we’ve ever played at a rally either…

Interviewer: Yeah.

John: …which of course some musicians were asked to. I think there would be more though, rather than the smaller groups; it would probably be the slightly larger brass bands, I think, would have done that.

Interviewer: That’s fine, thank you. And just moving on, then, to… more to do with like [the] social [side] and how people reacted to your music really. So staring out, then, with the older generation – your parent’s generation – when you first started out in music and maybe moved into jazz, what was their reaction to it? [29:58]

John: I would say… not at all hostile, in any way. However, because neither of my parents were interested in the music that I loved, I suppose I didn’t have the encouragement either, and… neither of my parents were musicians, so they didn’t influence my choice of an instrument, and… They certainly didn’t stop me in any way, or talk against it, they were encouraging, I think, in… in their own way.

Interviewer: And when you first started going – because you mentioned you used to go to like concerts, and things like that – did you find that it was mainly your peer group and like young people that went, or was there a bit of a mix to start out, and has the audience changed over the years as well? [30:51]

John: Yes, it… the audience has… I’ll come to that last of all, but when I used to go to, shall we say, to see the big bands, like the Ted Heaths and The Squadronaires, they… It was usually up on a place like the Palladium, where the audience would have been very wide. Not children, there wouldn’t have been no young… children there, but there would have been a wide audience probably from teenagers right through to grandparents. And over the years, of course that’s changed considerably, because the people that were… were our age and jazz was number one in the charts, they’ve go… probably stayed where they were – a lot of them have… some have moved on – have stayed where they were, and of course not only have they got older but so have the musicians. So you’ve really got now, there are a few young people, but not enough, coming along. And… the musicians are moving… are dying, you know. One that I used to love watching died a week or so ago, Mike Daniels, a cornet player, a cornet/trumpet player. And… it can’t be replaced really because although there might be young people going to college to learn brass, but I don’t think many of them ever... aspire to the music that… that we love, you know.

Interviewer: Yeah. And did you find that you used to go to these kind of concerts with friends, like when you started in music, was it a lot of your friends that were also involved – especially when you were moving into jazz – or were there people that you met through going to concerts, if that makes sense? [32:43]

John: I think the… the concerts in London… it was… fun… it was fine because the people I was working for had a fantastic social scene and they arranged regularly – at least once a month – a trip by coach up to London, to a concert, sometimes to a show or a play, and I used to go with them. So I was really going with people I knew from work - and their other halves. Really, that was local, but… I think that was really more of it… the jazz of course was going to pubs and clubs with friends.

Interviewer: Yeah, that’s fine. Thank you. And just moving on to the final bit, really, just about contributions, really. So in your own mind are there any particular achievements of your musical endeavours that you can think of, that you would name? [33:53]

John: I… I guess it’s got to… be playing in New Orleans. We were invited… four times in the 1980s to go to the festival, which is the Jazz and Heritage Festival – or it was – and it was in the fairground which is a racetrack and… we… it was… it was… we had three quarters of an hour, but so did people like B.B. King and other musicians who were there, so it was… it was great. And we did that four times, which was marvellous. And… I think it must have been the… it was… we did ‘80 and ‘82, and I think ‘86 and ‘88. I think we missed ‘84, but I think it must have been the ’82 [festival]… we were… invited to play for the 40th anniversary… While we were out there we were invited to play for the 40th anniversary of the New Orleans Jazz Club, and while we were there we were presented with the… Citizens of New Orleans, and I’ll have to show you the certificate in a moment, which is on the wall upstairs, it’s lovely. So we… I don’t think it’s freemen, I think we’re citizens... can you… would you mind getting it for me? Thank you.

Interviewer: And who… who was that that presented it to you? [35:34]

John: It was the New Orleans Jazz Club who had invited us to play for their 40th anniversary, which is… is a British band playing for an American jazz club, it’s very good, yeah.

Interviewer: So when you received that then, was that something you knew to expect or was it a bit of a surprise? [35:51]

John: It was a surprise, it was, we didn’t know we were going to get it. It was marvellous, yeah. So… [laughs]

[Unknown voice in background]

John: Oh, International Honorary Citizen, there we are.

Interviewer: Ahh… So, ‘Be it known that the Mayor of New Orleans has conferred the title of International Honorary Citizen upon Frog Island Jazz Band’. Oh, that’s lovely. And that’s the 5th of May… 5th of May 1982. [36:25]

John: That was our second visit, in ‘82.

Interviewer: Ah… it’s lovely. So… That’s a lovely certificate to have as well, it’s very pretty. But no… thank you. [36:36]

John: Yeah. So… to… answer the question I suppose, those, those four… we did it four, four times… was probably the highlight of the music. Although we’ve had some really good times at festivals in this country… We did the first few years of the Bude Jazz Festival… and thoroughly enjoyed that, so I think... [background noise]… I think… [laughs]… Sorry about this…

Interviewer: That’s all right, no worries… [37:13]

John: [Laughs]

John: Yes.

Interviewer: Ok, so… [37:16]

John: While… while we were in New Orleans in 1980, besides the festival we played at several events which... when we went we didn’t know that… people actually came in to the hotel where we were, and we were sometimes practicing, and they’d book us for an engagement. And this was in a restaurant called The Gazebo in the French Quarter of New Orleans, and this artist from Oregon, Earl… Newman?... Earl Newman from Oregon did a sketch… of… of the band…

Interviewer: Wow. [37:57]

John: …and that’s it. This is Ray Joughin on the trombone; Chris Marchant on the drums; myself – John Whitehead – cornet; Rob Fullalove, the other long-standing member, on tuba; Keith Durston on piano, and that’s John Maddocks on clarinet. He was a guest that time because Bernard Stutt, our clarinet player, couldn’t make it, so we took… we were talking about ‘deps,’ weren’t we just now? That’s John Maddocks, who has a very similar style to Bernard.

Interviewer: Did you have quite regular ‘deps’ then, in that case, that you would use, like are they people that were all quite well known to you? [38:29]

John: Oh yes. For example, for a trip like that, we wouldn’t have used anyone we were doubtful about. We had to have someone who knew the style, and also knew… quite a few of the tunes, because… there’s parts in here which – it’s almost like classical music – that need to be played.

Interviewer: Yeah. It’s a wonderful photo, though, to… well, I don’t know, it’s like a sketch, isn’t it? [38:55]

John: Yeah… But it’s accurate, you know? I know it’s a long time ago now…

Interviewer: So do you tend to, from looking [at these]… do you tend to keep the memorabilia from key moments in your career? [39:07]

John: Yes, I don’t keep as much as Rob, because he does the management side, he gets, quite often, gets things given to him, maybe a poster or something, that he keeps it – it’s there for the band if they want to see it – he keeps it in a big file, but I… I keep a few things but not as many as him.

Interviewer: No, that’s wonderful. And… would you say that with all these different things, like you’ve played all in the UK and the US, would you say there’s been a particular [clock chimes in background] value, that you’ve added something to jazz in these places? [39:44]

John: Well, I’d like to think so. But… yeah, I... I think particularly… When we’re in a club where there’s a lot of enthusiasts, I think… we probably, we enjoy it, and feel as though we’re giving people something that… that perhaps… they appreciate. Because sometimes in an audience … For example, we… last Sunday we played in Loughton actually, in… at the British Legion, and there were a lot of British Legion people there, that don’t go for the music, but they go for the social occasion – and the lunch which is… which they provide… which you have to pay for, I might add. But… and I would say that when you play for an audience like that it’s not so rewarding because you know that they aren’t particularly there for what we want to give them, if you understand.

Interviewer: So in terms of like, comparing that to your very early days, then... Would you say that the, like the early days it was a very different atmosphere when you were playing, and that maybe… that may have influenced anything that you’ve done, or that made you particularly stick to a particular style, like did you respond to the audience, was it different back then? [41:12]

John: I guess… the difference being mostly that… is the dancing. In the early days, people being much, much younger, they were able to dance all night, or for the whole session. And… nowadays of course, what we find… [laughs]… what we’re finding – and it applies to all of us – we’re stiffening up, and we play more blues than the fast numbers. [laughs]

Interviewer: Yeah. And do you find that you end up touring in the same venues that you played in the early days now? Is it the same sort of venues? [41:56]

John: There’s a few, but there’s also quite a lot of changes, as well. It… but there’s still a few that we do. In Essex of course, you’ve got the Colchester [Jazz Club] and the Southend [Jazz Club] and the Hornchurch [Jazz Club]… still going... And it’s like that… we… we quite often go to the West Country… and we have a following down there. There’s a very good club in Penzance… and… another one near St Ives, and then you’ve got some… some in Devon, in Plymouth there’s a very good club, and they’re still going, and they’ve been going for years, so… We just have to hope they can keep… keep going because as I said previously, the audiences are getting less and some of the people are struggling to keep the clubs going.

Interviewer: Yeah. And what… do you think there’s a particular reason that some of the clubs have managed to keep going? [42:59]

John: All I can say is that they must be picking up people from other clubs that are failing, I think. I don’t think there’s any particularly new people coming into jazz, which… which is a pity. But of course, there’s not the exposure to jazz that there was in our day.

Interviewer: So, would you say then that yourself or jazz generally, has had a particular effect on British culture or the local culture of anywhere that… that you’ve experienced? [43:35]

John: …I doubt it. I… can’t think of anything, really. It does lend itself in some ways to events… for example, there’s a… a place in Hertfordshire that… Burstall, which is near Ipswich, which… we’ve done their Village Day [for] quite a few years now, and when we’d done it for about two years, we didn’t get an invite for the third year. So… [that] didn’t surprise us, but suddenly for the fourth year we got the invite back and then when we played there in the fourth year we asked, ‘Well, why do you ask us back?’ And he said, ‘Well we tried a West Indian band, and they were late…’ [laughs] ‘and… and we’d like to have you back.’ So, I think probably there are one or two things where you make, you know, make an impression.

Interviewer: So, in terms of jazz and its impact on your life, can you say a little bit about that – what it’s meant for you? [44:49]

John: Well… would I have… I might have gone to… well, I did go to America on business, but I certainly… whether I’d have got to New Orleans is another matter. But… and to be in the city where it all started… is… I think that’s the thing. And the... the feeling of… of harmony with the music is so important… Harmonies are so important. And when it goes well, it’s a great feeling.

Interviewer: Yeah. And just finally then, what do you see as the future of your jazz band and any other jazz activities you might be interested in? [45:42]

John: Well… I just think the fact is that as we’re aging and creaking a bit, one or two of… of the band have had quite serious operations in the last year, and one to come very shortly… it[‘s] just a matter of health, really, as long as we can keep going.

Interviewer: Yeah.

John: As I’ve said, I can’t really say that there’s anyone youngster that I would know about that would… would take our places. So I… I just don’t know. As I said to you earlier, the clubs are struggling to – financially – to keep going… and… the successful ones in time I would imagine will be in the same state as the ones that have failed. I… I just don’t see a way out. Unless there was a fantastic influx of… of young musicians, and young audience – its audience that’s as important as the musicians – so… I think that’s… it’s… ‘keep going while you can!’ [laughs]

Interviewer: Yeah. Thank you very much. [46:58]