Susan May (Part 2 of 2)

Interviewer: Okay, so still looking at your association with different sorts of jazz: can you tell me a little bit about any association you’ve had over the years with white Dixieland jazz or African-American jazz?

Susan: No. Not white Dixieland, no. I don’t deal much with that at all. African-American: what would you class that as? I’m doing Latin a lot now, but I wouldn’t call that African-American. I don’t know African American.

Interviewer: What about any association with traditional jazz and modern jazz?

Susan: Traditional jazz, that’s what I got started in. But I’m afraid now I don’t deal with traditional. We had one, perhaps one or two at my club at Chelmsford but apart from that I don’t deal with traditional jazz now. Modern, the real modern stuff I don’t have. I’m inclined to steer mainstream to bebop because then people know what they’re getting. You know, I’ll have a few more modern people in but I don’t go too much…I don’t like it, not when it goes too modern because sometimes I just think…And that’s what they’re inclined to show on television and people think that is what jazz is - and it isn’t. Jazz is such a wide spectrum. You’ve got everything from Frank Sinatra to trad to New Orleans to the standards, the Gershwins, the Porters, all that sort of music. And I love big bands as well. Unfortunately I can’t always have big bands at my club but I do love a big band, a good big band. I do wish I was around when the big band season was on, you know, when it was really…I met Tommy Dorsey’s son because he used to be a great fan of my husband and we always used to go to dinner together because he lives in Denver where we lived. His father would never let him be a musician. [laughs] He had to go into business school and make his money that way because he said ‘you’ll never make any money in jazz.’ But he regrets it a bit because he loves the music. But I think I steer pretty safe. Singers: now I like a singer. But a lot of the jazz people don’t like singers. Beckenham will put up with more singers. Brentwood don’t like singers very much, very little. Occasionally, if it’s something a bit different, they’ll like it – but otherwise they don’t like singers. Now I love a good singer, you know, but I can’t have them because the people don’t want it. I have to put on what they want really. I usually try to have one a month at all my clubs because I think they deserve a place as well. My husband hated singers, didn’t like singers very much – unless it was Sarah Vaughan or Ella Fitzgerald, then that was different. Me…there’s such a wide range. But I like people to know what they’re coming to. A lot of people come up to me and say ‘if I have my brother or sister, if they’re staying with me I have no problem bringing them down to the club because I know it’s not going to be something…’ I think they get too technical. [00:04:30]

I mean, my husband when he first came over here before I knew him, he came over here with the Club Eleven days and he played with the Club Eleven. He was in Ronnie Scott’s band and then the other band was John Dankworth’s. And when my husband came over from the States and started playing this bebop stuff I thought ‘wow! Wow, what’s this about?’ And so this is how the bebop started, you know, with the Club Eleven days. My husband was a great instigator of that but my husband seemed to stay like that whereas music progressed up but he didn’t. He progressed a bit but not as much. So he stayed on this more mainstream, bebop-y line. He didn’t go to the ultra, ultra-modern, which sometimes I find I don’t understand. I have to admit I can’t follow the music. Even if I know the tune they’re playing sometimes you lose it. I just forget what they’re playing altogether and I can’t understand it. If I can’t understand it and I can’t feel it in me then, I’m sorry, it’s lost to me. And most musicians, like singers…now, I can’t stand scat. I hate scat singers, very few people that can scat properly. And I know the singers that will scat and they know I hate scat. [laughs] They keep saying ‘we know Susan doesn’t like scat but we’re going to do one in this set and one in the next set.’ And I don’t mind that then but they do it. But if they were in another club they would scat like mad. I don’t like soprano either, soprano saxophone. They wind me up. They say they’re going to bring a band in with all these scat singers and a load of banjos and sopranos. [laughs] That would wind me up! They keep threatening. But it’s just I don’t like the sounds of those, you know, but everybody to their own choice. Not everything I put on at the club I like because it wouldn’t do for me to…I mean, I know who I’d have every week or once a month at least. But it wouldn’t do for the club because I have to try and bring in new people and find new people as well: bring in the new people because that’s the people that are going to keep the jazz going. And there’s people that I know bring in a good audience but I don’t particularly like them, their playing. But, you know, that’s part of the business. But some people are inclined just to put on what they want. They run a jazz club, they put on what they want. That’s the wrong way to go. Because you’ve got to put on what’s going to please your audience and I’ve always done that. And sometimes I’ll ask them what they want. And then you get somebody who shouts out ‘what about Oscar Peterson?’ And you just think ‘oh well, I give up.’ [laughs] ‘Why can’t we have Oscar Peterson in the club?’ I said ‘well if you can bring him back from the dead and pay his fee, we’ll have him!’ But, you know, you’ll always get somebody like that in the audience that’ll say something stupid. They don’t know, they’ve got no idea some of them. I am more mainstream to bebop. That’s me. [00:08:28]

Interviewer: Was there any particular effect that you can think of of rock and roll or the Beatles, for example, on jazz activities, on your jazz activities even?

Susan: The Beatles?

Interviewer: Yeah, or rock and roll. Did it have any impact?

Susan: I don’t think so. The Beatles, I was never a fan of The Beatles. I was Adam Faith. [laughs] That was before The Beatles though. I think The Beatles…a lot of people say they’re great and they love them. I don’t know, today’s music, I can’t hear the music in it whereas with the jazz, I can hear the music. Now, it’s just a noise. I’ve just had the V Festival down the road and I was trying to shut all my windows and I could still hear it. It wasn’t music to me. And a lot of these people, a lot of the pop people could not play jazz. They couldn’t. Even if they tried they couldn’t. Drummers couldn’t play jazz for a start because it’s more sensitive. It’s a lot more sensitive playing that. I mean I remember when I looked after Mundell Lowe. It was with André Previn and they tried this singer to come and sing. She was a classical singer. But she hadn’t got the feel, she couldn’t get that jazz feel. You’ve either got it or you haven’t and people have tried and they can’t. But I do find, though, that a lot of people who like classical music like jazz. Those two seem to go together. Because very often we have a classical concert in at the theatre and then we have the jazz on. Now, if there’s somebody that comes to our jazz, they’ll buy one ticket for the classical, one ticket for the jazz and then in the interval they’ll change round. See, I was more into classical music, I wasn’t really…I’ve never been into pop music, never. Even as a child, even as a teenager, I was into the operatics and things like that so I wasn’t really…As I say, Adam Faith and that was about it. And Elvis Presley. Apart from that…And people come up to me, I mean, I’ve met so many of these pop stars. I say to my children ‘oh, I saw so-and-so’ and they say ‘do you know who he is?’ I said ‘no.’ I’ve got no idea who they are. No idea whatsoever. It’s like talking about football to me. I’ve got no idea who plays for what or what he does or who he looks like. I wouldn’t know David Beckham if he stood in front of me, I wouldn’t know who he was. But you put a jazz person in front of me, now that’s different. Yeah. So everybody has there…and it’s good that everybody’s different because if we all liked the same, what a boring world it would be. Wouldn’t it? [00:11:47]

Interviewer: Yes. I’m not sure…this kind of links in with the other ones here but would you say that in your experience that jazz activities had any sort of effect on attitudes regarding race or immigration at any point throughout your time?

Susan: I suppose it did with me a bit. It’s very hard to say this. Because my mum and dad were very ‘don’t go near those navy…the American bases. Don’t go near them. Don’t go near any of those black people.’ That’s how I was brought up. And there used to be one guy on the street not far from where I lived and he always had parties and my mum said ‘don’t you dare, don’t you dare go near them!’ And I did once. I had a great time. My mum never knew. So I was brought up in that. And then when it came to meeting the musicians, a lot of the musicians were black and my mum would fear for me at times. And I said ‘mum, they’re just like us. Don’t…’ But she was of old school, really, so I sort of had to…The only thing I couldn’t accept sometimes was the language. I found it very, very hard because it was all effing-this and effing-that and I just…I used to hate it. I had to learn to accept their way of how they spoke. The Americans, they speak completely different. Even though they speak the same language. I mean I had to learn some things the hard way: you ask a guy for a rubber [laughter] and especially a musician! Yeah. You learn the hard way what different things are. So I used to go around with a lot of black people in the end and I’d laugh at my mum because…Then I ended up marrying an American after all. But she did like him. But mind you when he came to my house she said ‘oh, isn’t he homely?’ And afterwards my husband said ‘why did she say that about me?’ I said ‘well, what’s wrong with that?’ He said ‘she doesn’t know me. She shouldn’t say things like that to my face.’ So I said ‘what are you on about?’ He said ‘she called me homely!’ I said ‘well, what’s wrong with that?’ It means you’re ugly in the States. I said ‘over here it means a completely different thing.’ [00:14:51]

But no, I got on well with them all, you know, I’ve had a lot of fun. I mean look at the Ellington band. I did disapprove of one time when the white people could go through the front door and the black people through the back door. I thought ‘that’s disgusting.’ And Bill Berry was one of the first white people – I think Conte Candoli was the first – but Bill was on there and he was allowed to go in the front door but the others all had to go to the back door. And then one place they wanted a purely black band and Bill Berry was in the band and they said ‘we didn’t book him. We ordered a black band.’ And Duke Ellington said ‘well, if you don’t have him in the band, you don’t have any of us’ and they started to walk off. Then the guy apologised. But there’s all that. And then I knew a mayor who was a great friend of Lionel Hampton. I got to meet him at Nice Festival and he was telling me all the problems about black people and what things people would say about them and he sent me an article and I said ‘this is disgusting.’ He said ‘this is what people over there really think of us.’ I said ‘well, I think it’s terrible.’ I went there and actually…because I was with a judge he said ‘how about coming to a blues club?’ And I went down to this blues club - it’s for black people only – now, you go into this little room and all it is is black faces and I’m the only white person. I was allowed in because I was with the judge. What a brilliant night. I had one of the best nights of my life. There was a young singer there called Bettye LaVette. She was absolutely brilliant. And I said to her ‘do you want to come over to England?’ And she says ‘no’ because she’s got some children. But then later on she contacted me and said she wanted to come over. By that time I was not doing it so much but I had such a…and they accepted me in there because I was with the judge. They accepted me in there and it was just one of my best nights ever that I’d ever had. The atmosphere was wonderful. And they really know how to party. Oh God, don’t they know how to party! [laughs] I wish I had the movement that they have, I tell you. It was absolutely brilliant. So I’ve had some great experiences with black people and I think it’s…[sighs] I don’t like these people that go round, I mean, just because their skin is a different colour I think it’s disgusting that they treat them differently. That’s my views on that. [00:18:09]

Interviewer: Thank you. Just very briefly then: would you say that your jazz activities at any time were associated with any political views over the years?

Susan: No. Well, except for the MU. For two years I think it was they gave us some money to help the club when I first started.

Interviewer: The Musicians’ Union?

Susan: Yes, when I first started the club. Then I got fined by them because one of the musicians I booked wasn’t their union member and I didn’t know that. I thought he was because he was a well-known name. But no, they’ve been pretty good really to me because also, I had a load of money taken from one of the clubs and they actually paid me some of it back. You know, they heard about my loss and were very keen that I still continue with the clubs and helped me, paid me some of my money back even though it wasn’t down to them to do it but they did. But apart from that I am a member and I try and get people, I want people to be members that come to my club because I think they’ve got a power behind them. But up until I was in the jazz business I had nothing to do with anything. I am politically minded but I’m not going to…I don’t get into conversations about it really. Because I think that and religion can cause a lot of problems so I think it’s always better left alone really. [00:20:05]

Interviewer: Is there a reason that you value the Musicians’ Union in particular? When you were saying that you would like members to get involved with it do you think it has a particular place to help jazz?

Susan: Well it used to. I’ve sent two youngsters through to music college for a year at Trinity College and both times I paid for the MU as well because I didn’t want them to get caught like I did. And like my late husband, him and Dave Grusin they got fined by the MU for paying under scale Dave Grusin! He’s a multi-millionaire now! [laughs] But they were in a group and they were just playing for…and they got fined by the MU. But otherwise…no, they’ve helped me a bit. I wish they could still help the way they used to. But I think a lot of people took advantage. I mean, it’s different when somebody’s helping a club and the MU were helping a club to survive, somebody that wasn’t really in it for the money. But when they start putting the money into places that have got money, you know, they’re doing it to make money, then I object to that because I think they should stick to people that are really trying to push music. We’ve often tried to get support but because I won’t put on modern music they really don’t want to know. They say ‘well you don’t put on people like Bobby Wellins.’ I said ‘well, he’s actually appearing at my club next week.’ But that didn’t make any difference. Because I don’t…I’ve been to several meetings and I feel for the trad people because I think that’s dying out. And if they don’t get help soon I don’t think there’s going to be a trad section. And it is a pity because there is a place for that, there’s a place for all types of music. But they get no support from the MU because they want people to produce their own music. Now, my husband always used to say ‘there’s so many good tunes that have already been written that are not played enough: why should I write more?’ There are some beautiful, beautiful tunes. I’ve actually just got a guy now who writes his own music. He’s just given me a CD of his. He said ‘well, what do you think of it?’ I said ‘well, actually I quite like the tunes, they’re all nice tunes. Pity about the names of the tunes that you’ve titled them. I think that needs a bit of thought.’ I mean, there’s one romantic one and it’s called ‘The Wood.’ I thought ‘well, okay she goes into a wood but that’s not…it doesn’t give you the feeling for the right…’ But he said ‘what about us putting the show on?’ So we’re thinking about it. And it’s going to be all this guy’s writing. It’ll be no tunes that anybody knows and I’m going to push it at my club. I’m going to try it. You know, something different again. And I do try to put something different. And I always say to people, usually I allow them to play a few of their own numbers. I’m not restricting them from playing but people always like to normally hear tunes they know. Especially…I think it’s the age group. You can’t get the youngsters into the clubs and it is the older people that come to the clubs and they’re the ones that are supporting it. You know, I’m getting…my club at Saffron Walden, which is very unusual, the majority are women. A lot more women than men go to that, which is very unusual. Now, my Brentwood club: it’s predominantly men and they come alone. And there’s some women that come on their own but predominantly they come on their own. Beckenham, they come with their wives. You know, it’s just how different they are, the different areas you live in. [00:24:55]

Interviewer: Why do you think that is? Have you thought about why it is that one has more women in particular?

Susan: No, I tried to work it out. Saffron Walden I can understand because it’s right out in the middle of nowhere and the women don’t particularly want to go to a pub or something like that so they can come out and listen to some good music and then meet up and that’s their night out. With Beckenham, they come with their wives. They like to bring their wives. But Brentwood, ‘oh no, don’t want them with us. No, it’s our night out.’ So, you know, I don’t know. And yet, there was one guy, he used to support my club every week, he used to come along. And he loved the music, he knew everybody and everything about it because he was so knowledgeable about jazz. And then he died and his wife thought ‘I’m going to come down and see where he went every week. I want to see what goes on.’ She came down, she got hooked. And she never missed a night, you know, she said ‘I can’t believe all the…I just didn’t like to push myself because it was a night out with the other fellas. But, oh God, I do regret it. Just think of all the people I would have seen.’ But she came until she died. But sometimes they don’t know what they’re missing out on. But if you put on a dinner; now, I put on a dinner a little while ago at a golf club and the wives came then. I met a lot of the wives that time. But not to a jazz club. It was a jazz evening, a jazz night but just because they had a three course meal as well. Me, I just go anywhere I turn up. Me, I don’t care anymore these days. Past it now. [00:27:05]

Interviewer: Did you use to go with female friends as well when you were younger or over the years?

Susan: What, to jazz?

Interviewer: Yes, when you went to jazz clubs: was it mainly men then or did you have female friends that you went with too?

Susan: No, I was on my own. I used to go on my own. No, when I was younger, when I was a teenager it was the opera and the operatics society. I used to be involved with that. I was always down at the theatre. When I got into the jazz business, somebody said to me…Oh, I had a meeting in London with a record producer and he said to me ‘you ought to go and see this guy down at the Pizza Express.’ So after I had another meeting and that didn’t last as long so then after that I went down and that’s where I met my husband. Pizza Express, walking down the stairs. But we used to go there and even the Pizza Express in those days you’d always know people there. It wasn’t like it is now. It was more of a club atmosphere. It’s not club now. It’s people that come to visit - visit London - they go down to the club. You won’t get so many regular people. I mean last time my husband and I went down there we did not know a soul in there. We didn’t even know the band actually I don’t think. But it’s completely different from what it used to be. It used to be a great atmosphere down there. And in Ronnie Scott’s. We used to go in Ronnie Scott’s quite a bit even though my husband used to play there as well. But we used to go in the back with Ronnie and chat. He’d sit in the back room there with his television on and I’d say ‘you’ve got that a bit loud’ He’d say ‘well, it drowns out the sound.’ He didn’t like the band that was on! [laughter] But no, we used to have some… [00:29:07]

I used to walk around Soho on my own. My husband said ‘you never walked round here on your own, did you?’ I said ‘yeah, nothing wrong with that. I can fend for myself. I learnt judo at a young age. Don’t worry.’ But no, I never feared walking around. I’d walk around London and people would shout ‘hey, Sue!’ Marion Montgomery and people like that would shout out to me and artists, there’d always be artists in the streets walking around and I’d know more people there in London than I do in Essex, in Chelmsford. I go into Chelmsford now and I don’t know a soul. I don’t see a soul I know. But I’d go into London then and I used to know so many people. It was great. Now, everything’s getting more expensive and it’s all mobile phones and people don’t communicate the same as they used to I don’t think. Things are changing so…I worry because of my grandchildren. I worry because is this all going to be lost in the future? You know, the communication part. And going down to these clubs that, you know, you can create your own atmosphere. The whole idea was to meet other people that liked the same sort of music as you. And, you know, the amount of people that have come to my clubs and met people down there, you know, a fella or something and then they decide to go off to another club together and things like this. And I think it’s great. This is what clubs are for, so that they can find other people to go to other clubs. Not everybody’s like me. I walk in on my own because nine times out of ten I will know somebody there. I was taking my daughter out with my friend and we decided to go to the Savoy for afternoon tea, a nice, quiet afternoon tea. So we went in there and we sat down and we ordered all our food and everything. Great. And then all of a sudden music started playing. And I thought ‘what the hell?’ Look behind me: there’s a stage. All musicians that I knew! [laughs] And when they had their break, when they saw me there, they came and joined us and started eating all our food! So you can’t get away from it. [laughs] You’re always meeting musicians somewhere or other. Service cafes and places like that. [00:32:04]

Interviewer: Sort of keeping on a similar thing looking at the more social side of things: what was the reaction – if there was any – of your parents or the older generations to your activities starting out?

Susan: They were quite proud of me actually. Because of what I’d achieved because my brother was a solicitor and my sister was a teacher. I had a lot of bad health when I was younger so I was not allowed to take any exams or anything. And so of course it had a lot of…I was quite shy as well because of my health. And I think they were quite proud that I managed to achieve what I did. And I always say now, if anybody can achieve anything…if I can achieve it, then anybody can. Because I’ve had a lot of bad things happen but I’ve got through them and I’ve got somewhere now. I say I’ve got somewhere, I just run jazz clubs, you know, but my parents were fully behind me and what I was doing - and then I married an American! Oh! No, but they loved him as well. No, it was… [00:33:48]

Interviewer: Was there a reaction from your own peer group as well, outside of your family, to your activities?

Susan: Well nobody I knew liked - there was only this one person that took me to a jazz club, but apart from that I didn’t know anybody that liked jazz. I mean, I was a complete outsider, really, to everybody. If I said to any of my friends…they wouldn’t so I had to go everywhere on my own. So it was a bit difficult but I achieved it. I got there. [00:34:29]

Interviewer: Would you say then that over the years - this may have changed – but how would you describe your activities? Would you say they were amateur, semi-professional or professional? And has this changed?

Susan: What, what I do?

Interviewer: Yes, your jazz activities over the years: how would you categorise them?

Susan: Well, they are professional. The one thing I…There’s one thing that I’d like to achieve. I saw it in the States and I’d love to achieve it here: my husband would go back to the States and every time he went back he always played in this big band as a special guest. It was like a big dance and there’d be everybody from 18 to 80 there, all joining in, all having fun, all playing together and dancing together. And there was no age difference; age didn’t come into it at all. Here: older people, younger people. And never the twain shall meet. And this is what I’m trying to…I would love to achieve, to get the older ones…because they’ve got a lot of knowledge and they can give that knowledge to the younger ones as well. And why can’t they both enjoy the music? I had a young couple come to my club the other week and how they stayed sitting, I don’t know because they were jogging around with the music. They loved it, they had a ball. But it’s awful when a lot of people are older people. Do you want to walk into a place? How do you feel? I’m going to ask you a question now: if it’s all older people, how do you feel walking into a place and sitting down? [00:36:28]

Interviewer: Yes, I can see what you mean, definitely, about how it might be off putting especially if you are going there on your own maybe.

Susan: I mean, I like to see all people mix. Like it used to. There never used to be this age discrimination. I was always told to help the elderly and I used to go round delivering food and doing whatever I could and now I’m there, it’s completely different. It’s so…[sighs]. I mean, when they got me out of one of my clubs it was because my people were too old. So I phoned up Age Concern and they said to me at the time ‘well, you’re not entitled to it.’ So I said ‘but I want to get the young and the old. Why can’t you help us?’ They said ‘well, perhaps we could look for somewhere where we could put the older people.’ I said ‘that’s not what I’m trying to do. I want to keep the old people and the young people in. I don’t want there to be a place for the old people and a place for the…’ Now why can’t we come together again? Why? Music should be able to do that. And it does. I mean, my youngsters that come along: they come along and they play and they enjoy themselves with all the older people there. And that’s what I want to see more. I mean, nine times out of ten, the youngest person in the audience is in the band. You might have a band of an average age of 20, 25. Your average age: 60. [00:38:08]

Interviewer: In terms of clubs in London and stuff you do see sometimes that mixing a bit more. Do you think it’s something to do with the venues outside of there maybe?

Susan: I think it’s…Now, the one club is 606. 606 gets the younger people in. I think it’s because it’s down ground, underground. It’s got that, you know…Do you know what I think we should do with the clubs, jazz clubs?

Interviewer: What?

Susan: To make everybody want to come?

Interviewer: What?

Susan: Make them illegal. If you make jazz clubs illegal, people will want to come to them. It used to be. I bet everybody sneaked out to see it, didn’t they? But 606, I think it’s because it’s in London and it’s underground: it’s a typical jazz club. Where we’re just sort of hiring halls or rooms or something, it’s completely different. We can’t put our own atmosphere. Okay, I’ve got my stand with my husband’s picture on and I’ve got my plaque up and I go round with all these sort of things but it’s still not…you still can’t get the atmosphere like you can if you’ve got your own club. I mean, if I won the lottery - which I don’t do so I can’t win - but if I won it, I would buy a small place, turn it into a jazz club and get all the top musicians and get the crowd going in and I’d have pictures of all the musicians all round the room and make it a real jazz venue. So if you know of anybody, a multi-millionaire that wants to put a few million into jazz, then introduce them to me. We’ll get some premises and find a nice club and make it so we get the young and the old. I don’t want to disassociate one or the other. I want both people, both lots to enjoy the music. They can do. They can do in the States: why can’t they here? I’ve been fighting this battle for a long time and I don’t seem to be winning with it. [00:40:21]

Interviewer: I find it interesting considering what you were saying earlier about the media and stuff like that as well. I was wondering: would you say that has also had an impact on the generational divide there in a way that maybe some people will hear about it through one way but the other group may not be listening to those means of communication?

Susan: Could be. It could be just looking at their phones, playing games and things like that. I mean, what gets me now is I went into a restaurant and a young couple, nice young couple, they came and sat at the next table. As soon as they sat down out came their mobile phones. And I think they were texting each other ‘what do you fancy on the menu?’ Instead of speaking to one another. People are finding it harder to speak to one another these days. The lack of communication is going because of mobile phones. If I go out with my niece and I take her out for dinner I say ‘I’ll take you out for dinner but I don’t want to see that phone.’ I remember when we were working in Spain a long, long time ago before we had all the mobile phones here. And of course mobile phones were always popular over there and we’d sit in a restaurant and one mobile phone after another going. And I said to my husband ‘thank God we don’t have them in England. It would drive me crazy.’ And now it’s all you get: loud music and phones going. Or vibrating. [laughs] The trouble is, the one bad thing is I have got excellent hearing because I’ve never abused my hearing with the music. And now if I go into a restaurant, sometimes I’ve walked out because the music’s so loud and I’ve said ‘well I come in here to eat, not to listen to the music.’ If I wanted to listen to music I’d go to my jazz club or I’d go to whatever club. But if I come to eat, I come to eat, not to hear your music. Even though it might be music that I like but it’s such a volume that my hearing…And I think the younger generation, their hearing isn’t so good because they’ve had loud music pumped into them whereas I haven’t. I’ve never had earplugs stuck in my ears because that would drive me potty listening to music straight into my…oh no! No. I couldn’t stand them on the planes when we were travelling. That’s one good thing: no travelling these days. Living out of a suitcase, going from one country to another. [sighs] That’s hard work. [00:43:08]

Interviewer: Would you say actually - because you were saying obviously about travelling so in some respects you’re taking elements of British culture to other countries and you’re transporting other cultures to Britain in a way: would you say that jazz activities or your activities have had any particular impact on British culture or the people who access jazz?

Susan: The thing what I found, one of the things I found was that at the time when I was bringing all the Americans in…I was bringing all these Americans in two or three at a time, you know, but none of the British were going over there. I used to get a bit anti-this and I used to say ‘this is not on.’ And so my ambition was to get some jazz musicians over there and I achieved it. I got some over there playing to some of the Americans over there and they were amazed. Sometimes they get this feeling that we’re secondary because it’s not the home of jazz. My husband was a great ambassador for English jazz, for British jazz. I mean, he did a programme on the radio, which I’ve got, and he just said ‘the British musicians are brilliant. They’re very good. You always underrate them over here, over in the States but they’re not, they’re just as good.’ I mean, there’s bad over there in the States as well as here. I always wanted to see more British people and I was able to take some over when my husband died. I got some people work before in the States and then when my husband died they did a big concert. Dave Grusin organised it in this theatre, 2,500 people in this theatre. And I had two British guys on stage. [laughs] I was chuffed, I was so chuffed. It just made my day to think ‘there’s always Americans but I’ve got two British people in that group.’ You know, I think that’s only fair: if I’m bringing over all these musicians to England I should be able to get people into the States. One guy was going over to San Diego and I got him a week’s work over there, you know, and I was able to do this occasionally. I don’t think any of the other agents ever thought about it but it was one of the things that I wanted to do and I achieved it, to see these musicians. And some of them are still going over there because there’s a…why they did this for my husband: because there’s a world affairs conference at the Boulder University. They used to bring in specialists, all different categories – judges and whatever. And there used to be a panel and the students could ask them questions and they would talk about how they do things. And this was going on for some years my husband went up to the person that organised the event and said ‘you’ve got all this going on but you’ve got no music. Shouldn’t we organise some music in one of the theatres?’ So they said ‘well, if you want to. Yes, we’ll make it a Wednesday night. World affairs, we’ll have a jazz night. You organise it.’ So he used to get all the people in to do this. Now the concert is the main event there and everything else works around the concert. So that’s what my husband achieved there. I mean, okay, he’s achieved a lot of other things since then but he was so proud to get that. And he would never miss it. Even though I was rushed into hospital one time and I had to be operated on, he had to go to there. I said ‘but I may not come out alive!’ [laughs] But he still had to go to his concert. That’s where music takes first place. [00:47:24]

Interviewer: Would you say that jazz has touched British culture in particular, like, generally across the country?

Susan: Well, yes, because the one thing if you notice, if you watch TV, watch all the ads: jazz sells everything but itself. Because a lot of the ads use jazz music. Have you noticed?

Interviewer: I have, yes.

Susan: But people don’t realise it’s jazz. A lot of people do not know it. And I sit there and think ‘oh, look at that ad.’ I mean, there’s one Stranger On The Shore at the moment with Acker Bilk, isn’t there? And there’s loads of them, there’s always different jazz. And I say ‘jazz sells everything but itself.’ [00:48:17]

Interviewer: So in terms of your jazz activities across the years, then, are there any particular achievements that you could name?

Susan: I had my achievement getting British musicians to America…No, I think every little thing I do is an achievement. If I can get people in to listen to jazz that’s an achievement to me. I’m not one of these…I’m not one of these people who expects 100s or 1000s of people to come in and make a lot of money. I just want people to come in and hear the jazz and that to me is an achievement. If I can get a small audience in or whatever. I mean, okay, if I get a big band and I sell out then I think ‘oh, great’ but I don’t make any money because I give it to the band, you know, but it’s great and to me that’s an achievement. Even though I’m not benefitting from it. And if a particular concert goes well to me that’s an achievement, it’s one I really like. And people come up to me and say ‘thoroughly enjoyed tonight. One of the best I’ve seen!’ or something like that. And I think one of my achievements with the scholarship this year – because youngsters are all out normally to help themselves, I should know because I’ve got 4 grandchildren – two 15 year old boys came up to me after the concert and said ‘look, if we can help you raise any money at all, here’s our telephone number. Please give us a ring.’ Now to me, that was a wonderful achievement that those kids even just thought about coming up and saying that to me. I just thought that was great. I don’t expect a lot, I don’t want a lot. I just want jazz to survive and my husband’s name, Spike Robinson, to be kept alive as well. His name. And that’s why I do it and that’s why I hope I’m achieving what I set out to do. I don’t want big things - unless there’s that multi-millionaire where I can have my own little club and really show Lord Hanningfield what jazz is all about. [laughs] Even though he’s in prison! [laughs] For fraud or something, I don’t know. But, no, I just want to make as many people aware of it and enjoy it as much as I have and has helped me. I’ve made friends, I’ve made a lot of friends through jazz. They’re friendly people. Just like with my craft business. Craft people are very, very friendly people, jazz people are very friendly. They’re the same sort of people, there’s no spitefulness or anything like that in it, which is what I like. If you go into pop business, you know, it’s ‘who’s better than this?’ I don’t want all that. I just want people to come in, enjoy themselves, have a great time and go home thinking ‘that was a good evening.’ [00:51:58]

Interviewer: Finally then, just one last thing: if you had to sum up, what are the future of your jazz activities as you see them?

Susan: There’s not much future really for me, is there? Because I’m getting on now a bit. And if I die the same age as my husband, that will be next year. So I’m just trying to keep things going as long as I can. I don’t know what else I could achieve actually. I’m too tired, I’m getting too old now to really…I just hope there’s somebody that will take up the clubs after I’ve gone and continue to keep the music alive. That’s all I want to see. I want these youngsters to come up. That’s why people keep saying to me ‘you brought another one along,’ and I say ‘yes, we’ve got to keep this music alive and these youngsters are our future and if you don’t hear them now…’ It’s like when I brought Jamie Cullum in: ‘who the hell?’ ‘oh why did you bring him in?’ Watch this space. And now look at him. You just don’t know who you’re introducing to them. And then a lot of people say ‘oh I saw that person at my club.’ But, you know, I find them when they’re younger and I try to give them their first start. Whereas I found it very hard when I was trying to introduce bands, I’m trying to make it easier for some of the people. Because I know both sides, I know all sides. I’ve been a promoter, been a manager, running a jazz club and bringing musicians in so I know all sides of it and I know how hard it is. It is not an easy job. But, well, we shall see. I just hope it continues and gets…but I think we’ve seen the best years. Unfortunately. Mind you, Derek Nash will say differently. Have you seen him? [00:54:25]

Interviewer: No.

Susan: Go and see him because he is a character. Him and Alan Barnes, those are the two at the moment. They’ve got character, they live for their music and they’ve got the old style in them. Alan Barnes came up to me the other week and he said ‘God, I wish I could play with your husband now.’ So I said ‘but you played with my husband when he was alive.’ ‘Yes,’ he said ‘but I’m a much better player now!’ [laughs] And for him to say that to me when he’s one of the top players in England today, I thought ‘that’s wonderful.’ Just keep having a good laugh and having a good time and listening to some good music and I’m happy. That’s it.

Interviewer: Thank you.