Graeme Culham
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So what got you interested in playing the drums Graeme?
I think I got involved in music to begin with, in the sense when I was younger I used to watch the television and was enthralled by the drummer in the band and at that time it wasn't Jazz originated, it was just any form of music. My recollection of me getting involved was we had a carpet on the floor which had round circles and I remember sitting there thinking if I go and get a couple of wooden spoons I can play along with the television. Not having any conscious decision that I wanted to play drums or anything else, I just sort of found that it was a natural ability that I had and so that is where my musical involvement started and then was obviously recommended for a local youth orchestra that was run by Norman Langford, and I went along there.
Did you have a drum kit by then?
No I didn't, no drum kit at all. I just went along with a pair of sticks and then there was another drummer with the band already and the idea wasn't to out him so we ended up with two drummers in the band. And sadly enough his name was David Dyke and I recently found out that David had died, he had been ill.
How old were you when you went to Norman Langford?
12.
And this was an orchestra was it?
Yeah, it was about a 20 piece band made up of all younger's from ages about 12 to 16.
Where was it?
Mainly, when I used to go along there, they used to rehearse at the Queens Hotel in Hamlet Court Road. Yes it was the Queens Hotel wasn't it? In the Ballroom there, and other local musicians were in it as children at the time, Graham Hunter, Graham Turner, we were all kids together in that band and Norman was very encouraging with us at the time to make us want to play. I went along there not knowing what sort of music they would be playing or anything like that but obviously turned out to be Norman's encouragement to play Glenn Miller music at the time and older Neil Hefti basic arrangements that were a bit simpler to play, and that's of course how I got into Jazz, liking Jazz. I actually do remember going back to Normans house in Leigh and he put on a record called the Best Of Buddy Rich and by this time, this is probably a year within that time of the band so I'm probably a bit older, perhaps 13 or 14. I just remember sitting listening to this record not technically knowing what I was listening to, just thinking “My God”, you know, I just knew that this was good and from that point onwards all I knew was, is that was how I wanted to play and so it was a natural decision, so that's how I got involved with Jazz. From that point onwards I started obviously, as a youngster like you do going round the area, Southend and that, coming across different people that were involved in the Jazz scene at the time and the different venues, and of course in them days you had the Black Rose, which is in London Road, which was run on a Monday night but was the Musician's Union night which Norman Langford was involved with and the committee members were Ron Spack, who was the local bass player, who has now just recently moved back from Bournemouth, was the Chairman, Mike Claridge was the Secretary, I always remember that, and I think we are talking about 1975 here because I remember joining the Musicians Union in Queens Road, upstairs at the Union place that is still there now, and that was the committee and they used to run that on a Monday night. Of course that meant I got to meet all the people that were in the area that were playing.
So were you self taught?
I'm self taught, I was self taught but then I did go to lessons for a while in Rochford to a gentlemen called Bert Mason, and Bert and Dolly sort of became another Mum and Dad to me. I was there for about 11, 12 years. Bert really taught me to read music, Bert come from the dance band, side of things in London, before he moved down to Rochford and we used to run a bit of a drum shop there for the pupils, things like that. He taught me to read, a natural ability I already had and I would go along to places like the Black Rose and pester the life out of them to let me set up and play, and I had no conscious decision of what areas of Jazz I wanted to play. I just wanted to play this music, which I liked, regardless of whether it was Big Band, Trad, Funk whatever it was at the time and also I had no conscious knowing of the ability to carry those styles out, I just wanted to play drums so if I got to sit in with a Trad band I just played drums. I didn't know the history of Trad drumming, so all these experiences were learning curves, so as a result of that I started to know everybody in quite a wide range of scene with the Southend and Essex area from the Big Bands scenes to the Trad scene to Modern scene. The more Modern scene I didn't get involved in until a bit later, but initially it was Big Band music and because of the Buddy Rich influence. I got into sitting with bands like Bob Bell, Ken Turner band which were more East London, come Essex borderline at the time.
Were there many Essex musicians in those Big Bands?
Yes, you had Essex musicians at the time, though they probably moved out of areas to Southend, because a lot of people did in those days. We obviously had local players like Maury Owen, originally from London, lived in Essex so he was in a lot of those bands, First Call. We had some great local Trumpet players, Jonny Rowdon, he was a lovely player, taxi driver but marvelous player, Les Smith was the local 'call upon' lead Trumpet player, he could do all the high notes and they all played in all the bands that were going really. We had, if I stick to the Big Band thing at the moment as that is where I first set off from, we had the Black Rose Monday night, the Musicians Union Big Band, run by Norman Langford who was obviously run the kids band as well before that.
What was that called, the kids band?
The Super Sunday Sound.
The Super Sunday Sound, did you say that because it was sponsored?
Yes, it was sponsored by a kids paper that came out on a Sunday, called Super Sunday. That band ran for about, it went on for quite a while, at least 5 or 6 years that band. When I came away from that I got into the Musicians Union Band on a Monday night at the Black Rose because I pestered the hell out of them, and of course all the guys around me are still a lot older than me, I was this youngster and these more experienced guys with this arrogant kid who wanted to play drums as loud as he could play them. Oh, I must mention John Baker while we're talking about the Black Rose. John was a Jazz Pianist who lived in Leigh. He also was the top guy at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop writing for Doctor Who and other famous TV programs. I went to him in the late 1970's for piano lessons and he used to let me play with his trio there on the MU nights on the Monday. Anyway, from those bands other bands stemmed from around the area and cross over between the North London, Essex theme. Locally we had the Dennis Hayward band which more kind of a dance band but had the same musicians in it, and you had the Roy Howard Band which was a crossover between a dance band so a concert Basie-type band. I think Roy came from a more Grays area, I think that is where he lived, not totally sure but I have a feeling he did, and that had Pat Barber, now known as Pat English, was the singer in that, who was the original singer at the Kursaal with the Roy Howard band. She lives in Eastwood now with her husband Chris English, who was a trumpet player at the time but is now a piano player. Then we had er.... I formed a band, more or less in the 80's, combining what I thought were the best musicians in the area at the time. Eric Hoodless, Dennis Dorsey, Frank Hardcastle lived in the area then, marvellous alto player, Cecil Presling was the lead alto player. Cecil comes from the London scene originally, he was first call for a lot of the bands in London, Lyle Jenkins, who later on ended up running the Jazz Club at The Belvedere, Billericay on a Wednesday night, was on baritone. A lot of the good, local players, once again cross over from London to Essex.
I think Graham Hunter was on Trumpet.
Yes he was also in the kids band originally. He ended up in the Big Band as well. Graham Turner never ended up in any of the later bands, Graham Turner got more involved with more Blues and commercially orientated side of things.
How old were you when formed this Big Band? You must of been 20? Why did you fancy forming a Big Band?
Originally just because I aspired to see another Big Band of my own. It also meant that I could play what I wanted to play and in the way I wanted to play it and present it in the way I wanted to present it. So that was the driving force behind that. Probably a sense of ego in a way, but not in bad way but just sheer determination and energy I think.
Had you done the infamous Buddy Rich meeting at that point?
I actually met Buddy Rich in the mid to late 80's.
Didn't you win an award or something?
Yes when I was a kid, with The Super Sunday Sound. I got asked to audition for Thames Television, 'Nationwide', which used to be on in the evenings on Thames Television. They were doing a thing called Junior Genius, and so like you do with your parents, I went up to the television centre and I auditioned, I played drums with a backing track or whatever it was, I forget what is was now and they said “Great, we want you on the show but don't know how to use you”, I suggested I played with The Super Sunday Sound, so the whole band got sent up on a coach to State Theatre at Kilburn and they filmed it there. I remember playing St Louis Blues and done this little solo in the middle of it with a red waistcoat on and a black bow tie. Sadly enough that film did exist but somebody wiped a film over it which is sad, but yeah, so I got this award from Thames Television saying that I was a Junior Genius, so it was worth it in the end. (laughing). So that was that. (laughing).
After Norman Langford what did you do before you formed your Big Band when you were 20?
All I did up to that point was play for the kids bands, Musicians Union Band and sitting in with local rehearsal Big Bands. Everything I did till that point was Big Band orientated. There was no real deviation from that.
Was Melvin Beddows as well around in those days?
Yes, Melvin ran the youth orchestra at the college. I personally wasn't involved with that, but he was very much instigating.
Was that Southend College?
No it would be the Seevic College. I used to go and see American Big Bands there that he actually bought over, he bought over The Berklee he bought The Ohio's State University Big Band over from America and put them on in the College hall and there were marvellous bands, and he used to organised all that. He's been very much forgotten in some ways for his input I think on that front. To do that now would be virtually impossible. It was quite amazing really, but, yes on the Big Band, mid 80's, 79, 80. At the same time as that I got involved with a local keyboard player called Ray Ward, his real name is Terry Thompson. He used to play at the time at the Cock Inn at Stock on Sundays, which is just outside of Billericay. Before that he was at the Kings Head, down the road, that's where I used to sit in, and then went up to the Cock Inn at Stock and we ended up doing a hell of a lot through about '79 onwards with Terry. We were like a set trio really, there was me, Terry and Roger Curphy on bass, and Terry was very much a driving swinging player. He wasn't a technical player, he didn't have much knowledge about what he was doing, but he was a natural player and that is why we clicked really, because that is where I came from so even though it was very much undisciplined and all the rest of it, it was good fun and that really what the drive behind all that was. So, I didn't use to do a lot on the local scene. We used to do a regular on a Friday at Rettendon Lodge in Rettendon, by this time the Musicians Union's Club had moved from Lindisfarne, it had gone on from the Black Rose days to the Lindisfarne, Westcliff and continued there for 2 or 3 years and then went to the Ekco Club, which is over by the Ekco plastic works, and by that time I with the trio as well at the same time and we used to play there a lot and things like that.
Who ran the Jazz at the Ekco Club? Still Norman Langford?
No, the guy who used to run the Jazz there was Les Bridge, who was the Father of Les Bridge Junior and also was in the kids band with me, that's another name I'd forgotten. There was The Super Sunday Sound, Les Bridge alto player, his Father Les Bridge Senior, him and his wife ran the Jazz at the Ekco Club. But Norman still ran the rehearsal, MU Band there at that time as well the lead trumpet in my band. I formed a little rehearsal band. We used to do it with my band under my name. The Big Band thing was still going then but was a knock on effect from everybody else's bands, because of the local rehearsal bands. Of course the Ray Ward Trio - me, Roger and Terry did that at the time and then my own band took over quite a lot. I was very much into that.
Did you play much out of the area with the Big Band or was it all local?
No, well we did travel a little bit with it but not too much, but the nature of the music we played wasn't commercial wasn't like a Glenn Miller Band that you got round the theatres.My Original big band was formed as a rehearsal band that met on a Wednesday evening at the Rettonden Lodge Hotel. Rettonden, Essex. The band later went on to perform Concerts four times a year at the Freight House in Rochford Essex which later became its base for rehearsals. The band recorded a 12' LP at the Freight House in 1986 featuring arrangements by Frank Hardcastle. The Big Band also performed at various Theatres such as Basildon's Towngate the Playhouse in Harlow, East Ham town hall and Spar Theatre in Felixstowe. Local jazz venues such the Ekco Club and London venues such as the Prince of Orange in South London. The band was also featured on BBC and local radio. We did do an LP with it, which was recorded at the Freight House at Rochford because that was like our resident base for the band. We used to do that 3 or 4 times a year and pack it out, it was good fun in them days doing that. But that was recorded at one of those gigs, still got that as a memory piece. So the Big Bands, the Trio and of course at those times I began to meet other local people as well very much more going now towards the main stream modern area because doing the Trio, obviously Ken Baxter. Ken obviously ran Jazz in the Southend from year dot that I knew and right back to the Arlington Room days, and when I came across Ken it was obviously the Top Alex in Southend and I used to go down there and watch the music down there, and the players with them at the time were Digby Fairweather and Vic Wood, a younger Alan Clarke, I think even....er, trying to think of another drummer.
Pete Jacobsen was doing it as well.
Yeah Pete Jacobsen was doing it, very much doing at that time. He was doing it til the end Pete. So I got to know those people, although I wasn't playing with them, because naturally they had already got their little scene and people he used, even though later on I became more involved with Churchill's on a regular basis with Ken and that scene. Absolutely marvellous, great players Vic Wood and Pete Jacobsen were world class players. We were very lucky to have them living in our area, I mean they were world class standard players. I know that Vic was offered an audition with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra at one point when they were at the Festival Hall and he was just happy being a postman during the day and playing at night, which was quite amazing really. Pete Jacobsen was the 'Chick Corea' of this country plus and we were lucky to have him and Pete was a great guy to play with, because he changed my playing from being a swing big band drummer to a bit more contemporary, even though I'm not classed total contemporary, but he'd made me think about it, whereas before I hadn't even entertained it. So you would play with Pete at Churchill's on a Sunday morning and he just roast you. In the end you would try and pull up to his level, so it sorted a lot of my playing in some areas out a great deal. It was good experience. I was very lucky to have that, and to have Vic on the same gig was just like I couldn't wait for Sunday mornings to play. It was a shame it was only Sunday mornings. So that was when I was involved with that. I think I side tracked a little bit because in time scale I was also involved with Maxine Daniels a lot. Maxine lived in Stanford-le-Hope. Maxine was like a mainstream singers, she used to say to me, “I'm not a Jazz singer. They keep calling me a Jazz singer but I'm not a Jazz singer”. I think that is because the environment I put her in was with a Jazz surround, in other words she sang standards with Jazz backing and obviously she'd done the best of Best of British Jazz which was a band with Jack Parnell and Kenny Baker those guys, she would travel round with those.
She was Kenny Lynch's sister wasn't she?
Yeah, yeah, or in Maxine's words, he's her brother (laughing). If anyone would say that she'd pull them up and say “No he's my brother”. But I got involved with Maxine, by default and tragedy in a way: there was a guy called John Graham, I'm sure it was John Graham, sadly John died, and John was at the time very responsible for driving Maxine around to all these gigs that she was doing and because I was doing the odd gig with her I ended up being on some of the gigs with her and I used to end up driving her and then it would be, like, “Can you, if you're not playing on Friday, do you think you drive me somewhere?”, so I got involved quite heavily with taking over from that slot. So I ended up playing more and more with Maxine and did a couple of albums with Roy Williams and Ted Beament and another local bass player at the time called Frank Donnison, who lived in Leigh. Sadly Frank has passed away now, but Frank Donnison was actually on Louis Bellson's 'Live in London' album, he played with Bill McCuffey for years, he was the piano player Bill McCuffey, he used to play in the Eric Delaney band, Geraldo years ago, you get a real history of the original music scene. Funnily enough I teach his Grandson now and that was quite a shock when he came to the door and said “By the way”, he said to me one week “you knew my Grandad”, I said who was that and when he said that you realise how old you are getting. He was on bass on that album with Roy Williams and I ended up playing quite a lot with Maxine and I knew the family very well.
She was lovely wasn't she?
Tragically we've lost her as well now, but yes she was a character as well.
She used to do a lot though didn't she?
Well Maxine goes back to the 50's. That's when her hey day was, when she was on telly every night. She was a 50's name singer which was very popular at the time, she was very much friendly with Shirley Bassey and people like that. They were all part of that scene and obviously she had illnesses after that and came out the scene quite a bit and a lot of her mannerisms and ways were misinterpreted because of that history of illness, which is an illness now that is dealt with and dealt with in a different way, so probably wouldn't have gone down the same path route. But she just used to like to sing. She was quite a character to work with because she came across as somebody who is very confident and a lot of fun but in actual fact behind it there was someone who was quite nervous of doing the gig and quite sincere and very humble about what she did. She hated anybody complimenting her, she didn't think she was worthy of it, but as you know she had a very pure velvet silk voice and sung things with great calm. She definitely had her own niche of singing and credibility for doing so. She was very much into Ella Fitzgerald, though she didn't sing that, she wasn't an improviser, although her style of singing was very sort of laid back, almost off the beat type thing. So I was lucky there with Maxine. There are 3 players out there that I've mentioned in the last few minutes, Vic Wood, Pete Jacobsen and Maxine Daniels, world class people, involved in our own area,
Did you play with Maxine right up until she died?
Yes, I did.
Amazing, that was a long run then?
Yes, we were involved in the long time in the end. Maxine was somebody else as well that was involved in a cross over in the area, you'd find her with Pete Corrigan's Band at the Queens doing Dixieland, Traditional style of playing because she'd could easily sing the songs in that environment, then you'd find her in the swing band, the Best of British, Jack Parnell and the ex-Big Band players of the country, and then you'd her with the Pete Jacobsen Trio crew singing a song with Pete's extreme playing to the others. Behind it she was somebody that could slot anywhere, and I think once again, her history goes back before I knew her, even with Southend and involved with Ken as well. Obviously if you run a club in Southend somebody is going to come through the door. Another great player in the area at the time was piano player, worth mentioned Roy Wevly, tall guy, really nice guy lived in Rochford, actually not far from where Ken lives and he was a marvellous player as well. He was sort of slightly ahead of what was happening at the time.
Did he ever get out of the area Roy?
No, he just played locally and also, unfortunately he had an illness with his legs that sometimes he couldn't walk, he was very reluctant to sometimes do gigs, you'd ask him to do a local gig on piano and you'd find he'd back because of that reason, which was a shame. He was a good player of the day.
So we're about the mid 80's at the moment aren't we?
Yes, definitely.
What was going on around Essex that you remember at that time?
From about... a good 10 year run, from about 79-90 you had a lot happen, I think, if I'm getting my dates right, because you had a very strong Traditional Jazz scene, run by Eggy Ley and Cy Laurie and that crowd, you had the Ken Baxter with the Modern side of things, we had our local magazine go out called 'Jazzin' Around' which would advertise all these things happening, so there was a lot of knock on effect of things.
BBC Essex had a Jazz Show didn't they?
BBC Jazz Show, yes that's quite right.
Was that Eddie Blackwell and Tony Poole?
That was in Station Road in Southend, which was originally the Southend Standard printing place. I think there is a radio station in there now. There was a lot going on locally, across styles of Jazz, I used to go round and try and support them, and sit in and play.
Was there much happening elsewhere in Essex do you remember at the time?
There has always been stuff trying to go on in Chelmsford and the tragic thing about Chelmsford is that it's the county town of Essex, it's one of the hardest places to promote music and I think the reason for that being, it's a commuting city, because people come home from work at 9pm and go back at 7 in the morning. Chelmsford over the years has had its things, what I mentioned earlier the Ray Ward Trio I used play a lot around the Stock area which would knock onto Chelmsford and also I know that they started to try a regular Jazz club up in Chelmsford years ago to do with Joan Morrel, who came down from Cambridge. She was hired by Essex County Council to run Jazz in Essex, which was an experience and she tried to start a club in Chelmsford. Trevor Taylor was very much involved with Chelmsford, trying to promote Jazz at the YMCA, and I remember going to see Danny Gotleib the drummer from the original Pat Metheny Band playing with Gary Plumley and Pete Jacobsen, and that was put on by Trevor at the YMCA. He was somebody who tried to promote Jazz a lot in Chelmsford. I think also because he has his music shop in Barry Road he was in Chelmsford to do it and he's still runs Jazz now at the Railway, Southend, and because Trevor is part of the more of the Avant Garde scene, the more experimental music and things like that, he's always stuck to his guns with that. What you found was, especially from my youth upwards that Southend was the strong hold and there would be knock offs from it in the outer areas, from Stock to Chelmsford. Obviously going up towards Clacton, that's still comes under Essex, that's been a very, as you said yourself, it's a bit of a mystery as to really what has gone up there over the years, but you end up going to these places and doing the odd gigs that someone has put on, but that has just been a one nighter which hasn't come off so it's not lasted and the Jazz scene is very much like that. If they are willing to put Jazz on in a pub on a Monday night, you do it a couple of weeks and about 3 people turn up and then it finishes. It's always been a hard slog. So outside the areas, I've played in many of bands around the area of Essex, outside of Southend and the rest of it for different reasons.
So in the mid 80's you are doing Maxine, Ray Ward, you're Big Band is still going.
Probably folded the big band in about 1989 and also by that time I had moved away from the Ray Ward thing and I formed a Quintet with my front player from Hornchurch, Paul Higgs, who was with NYJO at the time and did arrangements for them, he's now the music director at the National Theatre. A saxophone player Neil Ridding, probably the greatest flute player in the country, Ted Beament on the piano, who went to do the Humphrey Lyttelton Band. Whilst he was with mine he got the job with Humphrey Lyttelton Band as well, and Roger Curphey on the bass. Over the 30 odd years I have played, Roger has always been standing next to me somehow on bass. It was either Frank Donnison in the earlier times and then Roger for definitely 30 old years of that time. I've always ended up on gigs with Roger and I think that's because Roger was the better double bass player of the area and everybody called upon him. And still do.
You formed that later, that band?
That was about '91, so probably between me finishing the Big Band I was doing bits and pieces and that would be going from playing with Pete Corrigan on a Sunday morning at the Queens Theatre to doing the odd gig with Maxine up until the point when we lost Maxine and generally teaching. I've always done a bit of drum teaching. And then obviously, also around that time I did a couple of things for you.
You played for Jackson Sloan. When Jackson left Rent Party he decided to go solo and go to a more of a Swing/Be Bop area.
Yes we did, we did an album with that also.
Yes in the late 80's.
We recorded that at the Bass Clef in Hoxton Square, Wave Studios. We had some people on that album didn't we? Dick Morrisey, Dick Pearce, Pete King, John Mayer..... Glad you remember all this.
Well I produced it I should remember it! (laughing) That album was beyond belief when you consider who was on that and everyone played, Mark Fitzgibbons. He's in Australia now. Now that was an amazing album and everyone played incredible on that. You were digging in like a good 'en on there! Jackson did a lot of gigs and after that album he still continued for a bit longer. I heard some of his recordings which were even more funkier. Did you do many gigs with Jackson?
I think you had the Wag Club, it was at the top of China Town, on a Monday night. I remember that because I remember you being on Congas as well on that one, the 100 Club, yes we did all those. After that period of time I did a couple of pieces for you album wise, the '3 Faces Of Snowboy'.
The big band Funk Version of The New Avengers, which you were outstanding on, well you were outstanding on everything. What was great about the 3 Faces Of Snowboy, obviously you're on it and also Pete Jacobsen and Vic Woods is on it, and Gary Plumley of course.
And Joe De Jesus, trombone player.
There's all that Essex on there, Gary, Pete, Vic... It looked at one point you were in the frame to play drums with James Taylor Quartet. Neil Robinson ended up doing it through John Willmott.
Yes because they go back to Rent Party Days. That's the nature of the game.
It's good that you were doing all the other types of things and you had your toe in the, for want of a better word the Acid Jazz/Jazz Dance world briefly, which is good.
Well that's thanks to you really, because you asked me to do those things. One of the things I've always battled with is being typecast, and because of my early days of being so influenced with the Big Band thing and the Buddy Rich thing you spend the rest of your life apologising for it to some degree, but you want to get involved with other things.
It's nothing to apologise about because you are an absolute incredible drummer. Jackson Sloan said the other day in his interview, he said that he feels that you are probably the greatest drummer that has ever come out of Essex. He meant that.
He didn't say the country? (laughing)
So how did you meet Buddy Rich?
I met Buddy Rich because Buddy originally came.... well first of all, when he used to go to Ronnie Scotts, I used to save up and book a table for the whole week and I couldn't afford a drink, just the ticket. I had this little table at the time, it's different to what it is now, a little table, it's was next to the stage and I was lucky enough to be sitting next to his two floor toms and in those days, even though I had no money I smoked, I used to sit there every night and watch him and every night he'd walk past the table and nick a cigarette and just walk away and I'd wanted to say something but because he's your hero you don't know what to say, you just stop breathing, sounds stupid but it's true. Anyway this went on for about a week and it went on during the and then sometime throughout that week there would be a drink turn up on my table and he had told one of them to give me a drink, so he'd cheekily nicked my cigarettes, not said a word to me to wind me up and then sent a drink. That's really the way he was, so, bearing that in mind I still never got to speak to him because you know what people are like they are ushered off and there are already loads of people trying to get a piece of him. He came down to the Cliffs Pavillion at Southend and of course I knew everybody at the Cliffs because of working there myself, so I let myself in the backstage door, got on the stage and the trumpet player, trying to think what his name was, was setting up his kit for him which was the originally Radio King kit he had with the Dorsey Band, that they renovated for him. He said to me, “Do you mind giving that a knock so I can hear it at the back of the theatres?” Steve Peck was the trumpet player who was also did the sound for the band, because by then they were running out of money, so the trumpet player had to be the sound engineer, this was like the Buddy Rich Band. So he went to the back of the auditorium and I got behind this Radio King kit, I always remember sitting there, I started playing it, thinking to myself I can't believe I'm playing this Radio King kit. He said “Great, fine”, so I put the sticks down and he's standing there, just standing there. I sank, I thought “What's he was going to do to me?” He went “Not bad kid”, I said, “I'm really, really sorry. He asked me to sound check the kit for you”. Anyway, a lot of the band came through the door at the same time and go on the stand, I quickly jumped off and got on the floor and stood there waiting for some grief and he just jumped behind the kit and said “Where's 'so and so'?” and they said he's still in his dressing room. I remember him storming out and getting this guy, he was virtually pushing him through the door as he was late for rehearsal and I'm thinking he didn't go near giving me abuse of any kind! And anyway they played this number and he let me sit on the side of this rostrum while he played his rehearsal. When they'd finished he turned to me and said “I know you, I know your face”, I said “How could you possibly know my face?” and he remembered me from sitting next to the floor tom at Ronnies which was quite nice, and he ended up signing.......... After that rehearsal, it's a true story he snare drum had broke and this is Buddy Rich, worlds greatest drummer or whatever, they don't carry a spare with them. Buddy Rich had got no spare sticks, I mean that is unbelievable, well at the time there was a local music shop, Honky Tonk Music, they shut at 5pm, well he said “Is there anything you can do?”, I said I could probably try and run down to Honky Tonk and get you a drum head? But what's the time? They said it's 5.30pm, I said it shuts at 5pm, they couldn't believe that because America is open all the time. So I remember rushing home in my car, getting my slingerland snare drum rushing back to Cliffs Pavilion where I presented it to them to use. Well they ended up taking the head off my drum, sticking it on his for the gig in the evening and when I went back at the end of the evening he gave me the head back and he's signed it across the top. I've still got it now. And that's how I got to meet him. After that when he did come back over in the next year and a bit, because that's then by '87, he'd had the heart attack and we lost him. But in that very short space of time when he did come back to the Cliffs, and one more to Ronnie's, I could approach him and say “Hello” and he would say “Hello” back. But he was somebody who didn't want to hear, he didn't want you to go up to him and say “I think you are great”, he didn't want you to go up to him and say “Because of you I play drums” and that's why he was aggressive with people, he didn't want to hear it. He knew how good or bad he was, at what he did, he doesn't need to know..... he was also somebody who knew when he'd played bad, he was very much like Pete Jacobsen, they spent the whole night fighting themselves. Pete Jacobsen would sit there mumbling while he was playing and a lot of musicians were insecure of that because they thought he was perhaps moaning about their playing, but he wasn't, these people are fighting themselves. They have so many options in their head at given times and that's really what Buddy was about and you knew where he was, but,um...... that's how I got to know him to speak too. He was actually quite shy, he asked me “What I do I do”, I said I run rehearsal Big Bands and that, which he was over the moon at that. I got a chance to tell him what it's like here, compared to American Big Band history, itnever really happened, apart from the Dance Band thing; Ted Heath and all those, which he knew that anyway. Well that's how I met him and that's how I knew him.
Didn't he show you the legendary 'one handed roll' which you still do?
Yes he did.
Did you ask him to show you or did he offer it?
No it was quite funny, he was tormenting: he got back up and played again and he knew I was watching and he would do these little things because he was so conscious of these pairs of eyes just watching every move he made. So he'd do these things just to torment. It was an ego thing on his part but on the same token it was a cheeky, naughty side to him and of course he could tell I wanted to know what he was doing, and even though to a degree I can do something like it I'm not really doing what he did, because it's just, the reason he was what he was is because he was a one-off phenomenon like a lot of these people. You can go down and imitate to a degree.....
Did he actually show you how to do it?
He got up at the end at the finish and was doing that with his hand for me to see, it was like an indirect thing really. He was sort of showing me at the same time as not. He knew I was intrigued by it and he wanted to give me another little chance to see it, but bearing in mind they'd finished the set so he's got up from the drums, he'd got no reason to touch a stick. So he's picked the stick up and he's done this thing on the snare drum and I'm sitting there like that, he looked at me, as if to say “Make of it what you want”.
And you clocked it very quickly.
Yes I clocked it quickly. I was obsessive really, but I've moved on a lot from there. I still have the same enthusiasm and passion where I still hear it. How can you not?
So you formed your own 5 or 6 piece?
Quintet, 5 piece with Neil Ridding, Paul Higgs, Ted Beament, Roger Curphey. Paul Higgs done a lot on the arrangements.
Wasn't it called the Touch Of Blue Note or something?
The original idea was when it first formed was to be the Classic Blue Note, Clifford Brown, Max Roach-type band. That was only because at the time there was there was a general popularity for that style of music and I wanted to put a good band together that would have some form of outlet for it. You very kindly got the band up to the Blue Note at the time, later on at the Jazz Cafe, and to market these things as always we needed to have a theme for it and it started out as the Blue Note thing and later on, especially with the Jazz Cafe, we tried to do along the lines of Art Blakey-orientated side of the Blue Note thing. Even though obviously my playing would be far removed from Art Blakey after being involved with Buddy Rich-style of playing, but we adapted to it, it was adaption and I enjoyed doing that. So I did that, I did a CD with the Quintet which was all original arrangements by Paul Higgs, and Ted Beament done some as well.
Is Ted from Essex?
Ted lives in Harlow, so yes he is Essex.
Was he born and bred in Harlow?
I don't know that for a fact, but obviously he later on went to do the Humphrey Lyttelton Band as well and he does his own occasional Trio things now as well with the rhythm section of the Humphrey Lyttelton Band. He actually went to school with the drummer, that's how I think he got the Humphrey Lyttelton gig.
But Ted....... that's very versatile to be able to play Modern Jazz and then to play Dixieland, that's a bit like Tim Huskisson. Tim's very much like that. Can go from Fusion straight through to......
Well I think Ted is definitely not a Fusion player. He's the cream of the mainstream player, in other words he know standards, he has a good chordal knowledge, he has a good musical accompliment knowledge. He could come into my Quintet and play Mainstream to Modern-style and then also go and adapt back to the Humphrey Lyttelton thing, a bit more Trad orientated, a bit more..... and that's because Ted's roots are Fats Waller ala Oscar Peterson. His roots are that span of musical influences. He was never really comfortable if you every tried to do anything Fusion-wise, of course when he got more involved with Humphrey Lyttelton, Pete Jacobsen did the band quite a bit. Pete did a lot with the band in the later years, about 80's span out til about '97 and of course that put another influence on the band again. It became a bit more modern and diverse. We were doing Pat Metheny tunes, it became a little bit less Blue Note and more............ and he was more comfortable with that, whereas Ted wouldn't of been. So it was an influence on the band but both were good influences.
Were you playing regularly with anybody else other than doing your own band?
No, just doing my own band and freelancing really at that time. Obviously that was after your few albums. Oh, I did also have The Southend Jazz Orchestra too, which lasted three years. It was a project put together by myself to bring together musicians in the Essex area that where normally associated with other styles of Jazz or had not before played in a big band. The Orchestra did also include some members from my previous Big Band. The Orchestra performed at the Southend Jazz Festival and played several sell out concerts in Essex and appeared at local venues such as Churchill's.
What kind of bands were you playing with down at the Colchester Jazz Club? Just an entirely different thing altogether? I don't mean the 'Modern' Colchester Club.
Well there's the Colchester Jazz Club which is more of the New Orleans, but sometimes it only very slightly with that. George Tidiman, was it George Tidiman there?
George Allen started Colchester Jazz Club.
I played down there with George.....
George Tidiman is a trombone player.
….. Trombone player, that's how I ended up doing it. I gigged there through him, he was such a nice man and I met him through doing other things like Pete Corrigan and things like that. Also with Pete Corrigan as well, he'd get the odd gig there himself and so I found myself getting the odd gig in another Jazz scene totally outside of all this mainstream modern big band thing.
Was it a shock?
Not really, but by the same token I never really fitted in because I am to........ they're more purest in what they do and I was very much of the attitude of driving ahead, so whilst my style of playing fitted, but didn't fit sometimes. I had a bit of a conflict on my hands. People like Pete Corrigan and George and that liked my playing because it was that hard driving Swing attitude, from the Buddy Rich influence, probably which fitted great things like Tiger Rag and all that, steaming ahead. But then you'd get, there was such a crossover in those players, from the New Orleans and Trad that they'd be a conflict all the time, some people liked that 2 beat rigid feel, other would like that 4 Swing feel, so I found myself always in conflict in those scenes, not personally but they opinion of what players they liked. So I was sort of in and out of it, of those sort of things really. I just enjoy playing music and playing at the end of the day, I'm not judgemental about anything really. I think if something's bad no one needs to tell something's bad they just know it, don't they. Just like to do things well when I get the opportunity. So that was the Quintet, diving in and out of that..... as I say the players involved with that scene were Pete Corrigan, Dennis Field, Hugh Rainey, George Tidiman. There was another band that comes to mind with Colchester which was a very good band in its day, in that style. That was Tom Collins.
He was the resident band there from 50's onwards.
Tom Collins, lovely man. Tom Collins had a very, very good band in his time, for their style of playing. They were probably regarded as the cream band of Essex for that. Tom Collins, lovely man, he had a player with him, short guy called Bertie Dunn, who used to have a collection of saxophones and a big baritone. He was mainly played baritone, he played, he ended up being the Manager of Trevor Taylor's music shop in Chelmsford, in the last years. Also Bertie, he's a DJ but Bertie also played with a guy in Southend that was very much responsible for promoting a regular Trad scene was Peter 'Ponjo' Morris, who's a bass player and used to run it on a Sunday night at Cliffs Pavilion. I always went to it at the time, used to play there on odd occasions.
How long did last for? The Cliffs?
Well I think it went on for a good 8 years, and they were very popular, good nights.
What in the Maritime Rooms?
In the Maritime Rooms, it was Peter Morris. In actual fact it was Peter Morris and myself that were responsible for the first Southend Jazz Festival. We went to the Council in 2000, which was their centenary year, and said, “Wouldn't it be great to have a Jazz Festival at the same time?” and they agreed. So we actually arranged the first Jazz Festival, and that was also because I was chairman at the local Musicians Union at the time and he was the secretary and I was the chair, not for political reasons but, at the time I was just keen to promote music and get sponsorship for it, so rather than be contradictory when they asked me to do it I thought that if it would help, which indirectly it did, and directly it didn't) at least we got the Jazz Festival out of it. So yes Peter Morris should also be noted locally for that scene, a lot, a lot of work. Bertie Dunn used to play with him so that was the connection with Tom Collins and him, but he was in Colchester. Then outside of that you had the Modern Jazz Club at Colchester, which I didn't really do a great deal. They tended to bring other people in or touring Art Council bands.
At the Fleece?
No, that was at the St Mary's Art Centre, they did that with Johnny Richardson, no not Jonny Richardson, a bass player that sounds like Richardson, if I remember rightly, with Pete Jacobsen on piano and that was the week I did there with them. I did do the Fleece when it was at Boxford but with the Quintet, with Paul and Neil and etc, so we did do that.
When it was at St Mary's was it a long running Jazz Club?
The Jazz Club itself had been running for quite a while. They used to put regular events on there.
Who ran it?
I can't remember at the time, I can't remember who run it while I was there. It was a nice set up, they had a grand piano and it was the ideal acoustic concert hall-type thing. I didn't really do that one on any regular basis, it was just little things like that through with other people.
When did you do the John Petters show?
John Petters originated from Harlow, and he ran his regular Jazz Club at Harlow. John Petters came down once, I didn't know who it was, but he came down to one of Peter Morris's Jazz nights and sat in and played, and for me, I think if there is anybody that could fill the shoes of a Gene Krupa tribute act or whatever you want to call it, for me he's the guy that can do it, his total style the way he sets up, does everything. I was so impressed by that, and I also played on the same night and of course at that time I'm still heavily influenced with the Buddy thing and he was aware, he being the Krupa maniac he'd know about Buddy as well, and so he was quite knocked out about that. So of course the inevitable happened at the end of the night we ended up doing a drum battle and it just seem like good ego fun really, and then after that he phoned me up and said “Do you fancy meeting up for a chat?”. We actually meet up in Chelmsford in the Becash Indian Restaurant, because there has got to be a curry involved if you do anything musically.Ha ha. He said “Shall we try and do this show?” so we called it 'Drum Crazy', and Roger, once again, was on that with us and we, it was only a little 4 piece band as the budget is never there is it? We did theatres up and down the country, a couple of Jazz weekenders that John Petters actually organised himself. Like Caister and things like that, they had a Jazz weekender, we did those. I'd do the Buddy Rich thing and he'd do the Krupa thing, in the first half we'd do half an hour each, I'd do a set of Buddy Rich numbers and he'd do a set of Krupa. In the second half it was like an re-enactment of Jazz at the Philharmonic.
When was this?
That would of been 90's because it would of been about 95-98, probably around that. I'm not good with dates but it would of been around then because I had my first operation on my knee in 95-96, so yes about that time. I remember doing the Thamesside Theatre at Grays in crutches, once they sat me on my seat I was alright, I could move my foot, then they'd have to pick me up and drag me off. (laughing) You can imagine the audience faces in disbelief, these guys were going to do a Buddy Rich set and he comes on in crutches. It's quite laughable really. (laughing) It's mad enough I did it but I ended up back in hospital again because it came loose as a result of me doing that.
That's great though, going touring with that. You must of been in paradise doing that.
It had it's fun, we enjoyed it for what it was at the time. Because it had to be a show and it had to be something that could sell in a theatre or arts centre it had be showy, so the content, musically, had to be something that would please a family or..... after a while when you do those things they become a little bit..... there's no personal drive every night because you just get into a routine. But we did that for about a year and we did each one and it was good fun. I haven't seen John for quite a long while, because John, also thinking in my mind, was also indirectly involved with Maxine Daniels as well because John would promote Jazz weekends and things like that, he would quite often have Maxine as a guest. I know there was a couple of albums they did as well which Maxine's on with John Petters and also at the time a marvellous British trombone player, George Chisholm, who I got to play a few time at that period as well, he was such a tremendous player, George Chisholm. Probably the greatest trombonist we've ever had. So John Petters is a link there with Maxine as well I should mention really.
What's been happening since the days of the Quintet?
The Quintet naturally phased out because of commitments all round. Ted got more involved with Humphrey Lyttelton, I got had a few health problems so couldn't run it, Paul got more and more work at the National Theatre as an MD, so naturally like these things, they fall out of phase unintentionally. Since then, after I had my illness I concentrated a great deal on teaching and to see where I would be at, to whether I could play at all and things, which obviously I can, that's all fine. So then I formed a 6 piece band, and that's also with a younger generation of local Essex Jazz musicians that have now come up through the same direction we all do.
Who is in it?
Zak Barrett, who runs a very good Fusion band called The Fellowship. They were very much Chelmsford based for a long while at the Basement, which now has sadly shut down. That's a very good Fusion band. Zac Barrett's on saxophone, I've got an American guy called Albert Garza who now lives over here, married an English girl and they live in Chelmsford. Albert Garza is on saxophone, so there is 2 saxophones, the trumpet chair goes between Paul Higgs and a guy called Chris Lanberti, Italian name. I've got a young guy called Danny Banks on keyboard, who does most of the arrangements for the band, quite a talented young lad. I'm using an electric bass now rather than a double bass as it's more across the board-type music rather than one direction. That's either done by Andy Staples or Mike McGiveney, who are quite local players. That happened by sheer circumstance because they teaching with me at the same schools, they are local and we just formed the band, it's convenient but it's actually turned out to be very good fun and a very good band actually. I can do it with no pretence and under no pressure, just enjoy doing it. We cross everything in the band that I've done in the past, we do some Buddy Rich arrangements, we do some Pat Metheny arrangements, we do some original arrangements, so the band really lets me do all the things that I've done to this point, musically, at my own judgement or pace.
What's it called the band?
It's called Graeme Culham Jazz Sextet. If we put a theme on it, we sometimes go out if someone wants us to do tribute night for Buddy Rich, which I obviously do get asked still, we call it 'Buddy's Review.' It was just to give it a title for covering it as a Buddy Rich act but mainly it's the Graeme Culham Sextet, like the Quintet was, general band.
And course you are promoting Jazz at the moment, in 2013.
I wanted to run a regular little blow that I could do that was pressure free that I could invite musicians along to play, so I'm set up a regular Jazz night once a month in Chelmsford. At The Woolpack, they've got a nice room at the back there and I do an informal Jazz night, I use the guys individually out of the band, I also put the band on there. I also bring other people in, Gary Plumley he's going to do one with Tony Sandeman, a local guitar player. I doing that because it gives me a little regular play and a bit of fun really, and running the band. I'm still teaching, privately at the moment at the studio and a lot of people come to me for lessons to do with Jazz playing, independence, reading phasing, big band chart reading, so I'm quite lucky that the lessons I am asked to do are geared towards those things rather than just rock drumming or whatever.
So technically that's the end of the interview from that side of things. Tell me about the big bands you know of in Southend, rehearsal bands that we were talking about earlier, some names?
Southend Rehearsal Bands, well the ones I was bought up with were, Ernie Howton, a trombone player. He used run a rehearsal band but he was also somebody that used to be involved with importing Big Band charts from America, so other bands like the Ken Turner Band, in Romford would get their charts from him. He was quite involved with quite a few of the rehearsal bands for that front. Ernie Howton ran a rehearsal band at the Ekco Plastic Works for quite a while.
What night of the week was that?
I think it could of been a Tuesday night. It ended up going round to the Magnolia Plastic Works, they used to rehearse in the canteen there. That was mainly made up from amateurs and semi pros. The charts they used to play were very dated; Ellington arrangements or Neil Hefti-type Basie arrangements, nothing too challenging. Ernie wasn't somebody who liked driving and loudness, he more of the old school, he played trombone originally, possibly, with Dennis Haywood dance band, which was more geared towards strict tempo dance. Of course Dennis was the big band at the Kursaal for many years, and Dennis was the originally drummer with Howard Baker. Howard was the original big band at the Kursaal and Dennis Haywood was the drummer, so then when Dennis and Howard Baker ceased, Dennis Haywood took over. Then these guys were like musicians playing with Dennis Haywood, formed other big bands to play other styles of music outside of dance, so you ended up with an original rehearsal band. Ernie Howton was one of them, you had obviously Norman Langford, who we mentioned round the Musicians Union Band, so that was to do with the Musicians Union that got chart funded by the Musicians Union. A lot of the arrangements were send down by Bill Ashton, who runs NYJO, because he used to supply them free for any new members.
Whose son is my sound man, Miles Ashton.
How fantastic. Who else at the time did we have?
You just mentioned one from Romford.
Yes the Ken Turner Band was at The Reservation at Ilford on a Sunday morning.
Was this in the 70's or the 60's?
Late 70's into early 80's. Bob Bell, I probably had more to do with Bob Bell when I was younger. He was the one who used to get me up to The Reservation up at Ilford. I used to play there on a Sunday morning.
Was that a pub The Reservation?
It was a club. They used to have a piano player at the time called Johnny Wilson, and Johnny Wilson used to originally own The Reservation nightclub and this club really goes back, famously used to have Maynard Ferguson's British band play there on a Sunday night. They stopped in the break to watch Simon Dee, because they were the resident band on the Simon Dee programme on television. So a lot of these guys in those bands that would come and work between Southend and East London. So Ken Turner, Bob Bell, Ernie Howton, Dennis Haywood, Norman Langford, Melvin Beddows. Melvin was to do more with the college and the students where these other bands were more to do with semi pro and pro musicians. A slightly different scene but he was around for a very important part of that. My own band in the 80's, Les Smith from my band formed a bit of band in later years, made up from a lot of the Dennis Haywood lot and some of my band. He was doing more of the Harry James thing, because he was a trumpet player so his thing was to do Harry James, so that was another rehearsal band.
Was there anything more towards the Colchester way that you know of, from the big band point of view?
Don Drury was Clacton. Don would run a band from anything from a 10 piece to a 15 piece. I used to do quite a few things with Don at the Princes Theatre at Clacton on Saturday evening for dancing. Don was really more of a Dance band than a Jazz band, though the musicians in it were once again a crossover from musicians in these other bands that I've mentioned. Other big bands in the area, Crissy Lee, drummer Crissy Lee, carried on an all-girl band during the 90's, a knock on from the Ivy Benson days which I know she left in the 70's but she continued that sort of effort. Barbara White was in that on trumpet, who later became East London Chair for the Musicians Union and she's on Executive Committee now I think at the Musicians Union. She's very much involved with that. Other rehearsal bands on top of that.............. Oh there was Johnny Howard Band, which was a very, very good band and he had a lot of musicians..... the drummer in that was, he name was Johnny Silver. I met him by sheer accident when I was young because I used to live in The Dolphins at Westcliff and the road that backs onto that, I remember walking past one day and seeing was this guy loading drums into the back of a Stag, a Triumph Stag Estate. He moved to Australia in the end and then moved back again, but he was the originally drummer with that band. That was a good band and that had a singer in it called Pat English, who was known in those days as Pat Barber, but now she's Pat English, and her husband was a trumpet player who now plays piano. She was also the original singer at the Kursaal as well. In the Dennis Haywood band. The Johnny Howard band was a crossover really as they would play Jazz concert orientated things at Lindisfarne when that was going and then there would be a band that would do function gigs so they would play the James Last, or whatever someone was paying you for. When they weren't being paid they were playing the Jazz charts on somewhere like the Lindisfarne. So those bands were around then. There was a little bit of a knock on effect from the Super Sunday Sound, the youth band I was originally in. Les Bridge Senior continued to try and run a band for a while along those lines with the old charts that the band had, also Norman Langford went on to run another youth orchestra called the Prudential Youth Orchestra which was sponsored by the Prudential and that used to travel around theatres under that banner, very much on the lines of what we did with the kids band in the earlier years. There's been quite a stronghold of big band orientation in the area over the years. Now I just think is.... I'm not quite sure what has happened now, I think there are a couple of bands on the go I think, a re-hash of the Melvin Beddows Band. But what's the other band that went.... Norman Britain. Norman Britain was a valve trombone player who used to play in a big band at The Prince of Orange, that is in Rotherhithe, a bit out of our area. He lived in Hadleigh, round the corner from where you parents live and he was also in my band for a while. He ran a rehearsal band in Hadleigh Hall. He's now moved away, he's gone to Spain. He ran a band for quite a while in there, which I think Steve Robinson did for a while, he's now running the Beddows band. Quite a few of the musicians now have moved out, Alan Martin, trombone player who was in my band and that band and most bands, he was the local trombone in everybody's band. Him and another great player called Jeff Goodman, tremendous trombone player, and the two of them were in everybody's band, because they were the only two who could do the lead trombone parts. His now lives in Norfolk, Alan does, he was in that as well..... I don't know what's happening much now Southend wise, I don't think we've got a big band at the moment have we?
There's a rehearsal band that Maury Owen's in and Graham Hunter in, I don't know....
I know who that is..... I don't know the official name.
It's two names isn't it?
What happened was when Dennis Haywood became ill, just before that he was talking about forming a rehearsal band, because Dennis in later years actually went out as a keyboard player doing dance things, rather than playing drums. My friend Keith Buckingham, drummer, played with Dennis Haywood in the later years at the Kursaal in the Estuary Rooms, which is on the side of it. He ended up having them round his house for rehearsals, so they'd meet round his house in Shoebury actually. Pat Barber is involved with that as well, Graham Hunter, Keith Buckingham, Eric Hoodless has been in all the bands, a saxophone player, I think they are about a 10 piece, but that's a knock on for what was going to be a re-grouping of the Dennis Haywood thing. They are all ex musicians of Dennis Haywood as well, so that's what that's about.
THE GRAEME CULHAM BIG BAND - 1979 - 1987
Personel:
Drums/Leader
Graeme Culham
Trumpets:
Les Smith
Graham Hunter
John Bennett
Steve Conners
Trombones:
Alan Martin
Geoff Robinson
Steve Cann
Malcolm Reader
Saxophones:
Dennis Dorcey
Eric Hoodless
Frank Hardcastle
Cecil Pressling
Lyle Jenkins
Piano:
Arthur Tanner
Bass:
Roger Curphey
Guitar:
Dave Mascal
Vocal:
Maxine Daniels
Dave Barnes
THE SOUTHEND JAZZ ORCHESTRA
1996 - 1999
Personel:
Drums/Leader
Graeme Culham
Trumpets
Vic Woods
Graham Hunter
Alan Foreman
Ian Buzer
Trombones:
Alan Martin
Norman Britten
Mick Jarrett
Tony Brown
Malcom Reader
Saxophones:
Gary Plumley
Eric Hoodless
John Chapman
Kacie Baxter
Tracey Bridgeman
Keyboards:
Pete Jacobsen
Guitar:
Tony Sandeman
Bass:
Roger Curphey