Horace Stone

So at the time of interviewing you are 92 did you say?

 

Yes

 

So what year would that have been - 1920? 

 

1920 

 

Your birthday must be soon then? 

 

Yes in August, in August yes, yes. 

 

So am I right in thinking you are related to Lew Stone? 

 

Yes, he was my father’s brother. Oh, he was the youngest one of I think about four brothers and two sisters. Oh dear yes.

 

That is incredible isn’t it? That you are part of dance band Royalty!

 

Ha ha, (laughing). Unfortunately I haven’t inherited much of my uncle’s musical ability. I am just a poor old drummer.

 

So were you born in Essex Horace?

 

No, I was born in London.

 

And were you always a drummer? 

 

Well, I had piano lessons but I got “bird brain”, in other words I would sit down to the piano to do some practicing and 5 minutes later I wanted to do something else. I had got a smattering of knowledge, and then when I was at school I took up the trombone, but again, I hadn’t got the concentration to make a success of it. It is hard instrument to learn, the trombone, anyway.

 

Yes but it is a lovely instrument to play.

 

Yes.

 

Whereabouts in London were you born?

 

Hornsey, near Alexandra Palace.

 

So you didn’t make a success of learning the trombone, so then you took up the drums?

 

Yes, my father said “You can learn any instrument you like as long as it’s not the drums”!

 

Oh, ha ha.

 

I took to drumming, I suppose when I was at school, and I have been banging away ever since.

 

So you left school early in those days. So you would have been about 14 when you took up the drums?

 

No, I went to Grammar School. Then I decided to take up teaching, so I qualified as a teacher.

 

Teaching what?

 

It was general subjects then.

 

So you were just an amateur drummer?

 

Yes, well we called ourselves semi-pros! When I came back to the South, after I was 12 ½ we moved up to Sunderland because of the recession. My father got a job up there and that was where I went to school and then during the war, as his firm folded again, we then moved down to Norfolk, Norwich, and then I went back to college and then after that I took a job outside Glasgow for a year, got myself married, then came down South to Ipswich where I started playing again and then after 4 years we moved. I got a job near Wolverhampton and then I was there for 10 years and then at the age of 40, we came down to Essex, so we moved in here in 1961 and then I discovered that the Musicians’ Union kept a vacant date book and also there was an organisation called the semi-professional musicians association, the SMF, and they also kept a vacant date book, so it was rare for me to be at home for a Saturday night.

 

What is the vacant date book? Was that the idea was that if someone needed a musician for a certain date?

 

If someone wanted a musician, yes, they would ring up the vacant date book and they would tell you the names of the people who were free, which was rather good, and I used that quite a lot until I joined a small group permanently.

 

What was the name of the group? 

 

Duke Blatchley. He lives up near Saffron Walden now, and he ran a small band.

 

What kind of music?

 

Dance music.

 

Was there any Jazz element to it at all?

 

Well, he was a good Jazz musician.

 

What did he play?

 

Saxes. We had a lady pianist. It was piano, bass, drums and Saxes and also a singer. So we played in clubs and for dances and so on.

 

Do you remember any clubs around? We haven’t really spoken about your Jazz background yet.

 

No, I didn’t really play Jazz as such, although there was a Jazz feel there. I mean Duke was a fine musician. The last I heard of him, he is still alive, he is 2 years old than I am! Like me he is getting very deaf and he retired up to Saffron Walden. We played in clubs like Walthamstow Trades Hall and various other places. We did a few masonics and so on.

 

More functions. You didn’t have a residency anywhere? 

 

Not really, no.

 

Where did you go from Duke’s band?

 

Duke retired, I suppose at the end of the 1960’s beginning of the 1970’s, and I gigged around a bit and then I started joining the SMF. They had a big rehearsal band and we used to meet at a pub and then the pub changed hands.

 

What was the pub called?

 

The new tenant cancelled all the engagements, including a very successful Folk club this was in Walthamstow. 

 

What was the pub called?

 

I cannot remember. 

 

It might come to you?

 

It was down Forest Road on the right hand side. I would probably come to it if I can think about it. Then we sort of split up and a number of people said why can we not keep going and then eventually I found that the local hall just over the road I could have on a Thursday evening.

 

In Ingrave?

 

In Ingrave, yes. So that is what we did. We started off in there with about half a dozen and eventually built up to a full big band. 

 

What year would you say you started the rehearsal band?

 

It must have been somewhere in the 1970’s. There was quite a nice social atmosphere and we got a number of people interested and gradually the membership died off or changed. I remember one occasion when our Director of Music said to the trombonist playing, we were at a gig “Well I expect to see you at the rehearsal on Thursday”, he said “You will be lucky”. Gradually we built up numbers until we had a full house.

 

What did you call the rehearsal band? Did it have specific name?

 

It started off being called The Ingrave Big Band but then the local Social Services people wanted a band in a local hall for about once a month and he didn’t like the name of The Ingrave Big Band so in the end, ended up with Horace Stone Dance Orchestra. Then, as I say, we built up until we had a full house.

 

Is that about a 20 piece orchestra?

 

17. 4 of them, 5 saxes, 4 trumpets, 4 trombones. We don’t quite get a full orchestra now. It is often 3 trombones and 3 trumpets, but it makes a nice sound.

 

Yes I'll bet. Has anyone gone on from the orchestra to go professional, has anyone had any success stories?

 

We had one or two people who were professionals but they just died off unfortunately. There was in the 1960’s. They said it was more difficult to get in touch in a semi pro-band than to play professionally but I would say that the musicians we have now are sort of, although they are semi-pros and often have jobs as well, they play pretty much to professional standard, maybe not like the standard that Lew had. He was lucky in the sense that he was able to attract the best musicians around.

 

Yes. 

 

The story goes that Lou Davies who played with Ambrose, he got him to join him and then he had Nat Gonella and various other musicians.

 

It was such a legendary orchestra wasn’t it Lew’s. I think it was a 10 piece wasn’t it?

 

No it was 12.

 

It was smaller than a regular big band.

 

Yes, it was only during the war that he started writing for a full band. I have got one arrangement which he actually extended it to a full band.

 

Did you ever have an opportunity of playing in his orchestra?

 

No, I would never be good enough. My brother did. My brother is older than me. He started off as a photographer and when he was 16 they chucked him out because they had to give him a bit more money, and then Lew taught him how to copy music, so he was Lew’s copier, and when Lew had a stage show then Lesley would come down and do the copying parts of the music and he would also play first trumpet in the orchestra. But somebody said to me, Les was self-taught and I don’t know if he had bad technique but he always sounded brilliant to me. As he said, because of the copying he could read anything, but I always remember that one of Lew’s leading trumpet players was saying to me that if Les had wanted to play professionally he would have to put down his music, put down his trumpet and give it a rest for 6 months and then start again with a proper teacher. He tried to go to Nat Gonella as a teacher but Nat wasn’t really a teacher. The real teacher of the band was the second trumpet player, whose name escapes me at the moment. He was a good teacher and a number of my friends here were actually taught by him. Bill Harty was the drummer, Al Bowlly was the singer but they both went to America, and then poor old Al got polyps on his larynx and he had to have an operation but fortunately his voice was alright, but Lew always said he had been over sung.

 

He must have been one of the busiest singers on the planet, Al Bowlly. He just did thousands of recordings as a singer. Incredible. Did you meet him many times?

 

No I didn’t. The only person I really met was Jock Jacobson who I persuaded to give me a lesson.

 

Did you play with many dance bands in your early years Horace?

 

Well quite a lot, as I say, once I came down South I was playing more or less every weekend. The only other person I really play with of any note was Ken from Wolverhampton, the leader of the band was a very well-known Jazz musician and that is when I played Jazz.

 

What Kenny Baker?

 

No, he was a trumpet player. A very good pianist...... Ken Rattenbury. I suspect he has died because I once tried to ring him and I couldn’t get through. When I looked through the Directory he just wasn’t there. That is when I actually played Jazz.

 

I just wondered if you played in any dance orchestra’s when you was a young lad.

 

No, always small bands. I always had the ambition of running a big band, and when the SMF folded we tried to build up here. So that is how The Horace Stone Orchestra was formed.

 

Yes, yes. You said someone else runs the band now?

 

Well, I have always asked someone else who is a real musician to act as more or less Music Director. First of all we had a brummie who played trumpet but he died, oh dear, then we had another trumpet player, Arthur Mann, who for a time, he and the trombone player at that time was the lead trombone player. Peter was not a very good reader and he memorised everything so when on one occasion we played a new number, he was all at sea until he could get hold of it and he and Arthur had a row and Arthur just walked out. Later on we had various people and then Arthur came back again, and he had a very keen ear and he could hear everything.

 

What is his surname, Arthur what? 

 

Arthur Mann.

 

Is he local?

 

Yes, he lives in Romford and he is getting on a bit now and only just recently he has surfaced again to assist with the trumpet section.

 

Who runs the orchestra now?

 

I suppose Eddie does.

 

Eddie? What's been the highlight of your career?

 

This was when I played with Ken Rattenbury but unfortunately that ended in late 60’s because we were coming down here.

 

That was in Wolverhampton wasn’t it. That was Eddie Claydon wasn’t it. 

 

I’m not sure, but I think he calls himself the Bryan Williamson Big Band.

 

What instrument does he play?

 

He plays the trumpet, a very good Jazz trumpet player. He always plays second trumpet, takes the solos.

 

When did he take over the orchestra?

 

A couple of years ago. 

 

Why did you stop running the band? Was it a bit tiring?

 

Well I was getting on a bit, getting lazy in my old age. Eddie is doing a lot of the work, and of course a lot of the other musicians play with him, particularly the better ones. But we get around, we make quite a nice noise, particularly the saxes. When they are going strong they sound marvellous.

 

What type of material do you play in the orchestra?

 

Big band arrangements. Basie, that kind of stuff.

 

Yes, great.

 

One number we have got is Basie's Count. 

 

It is quite challenging, Basie's stuff. Amazing. But you are still drumming through aren’t you, at 92?

 

Yes. I was talking to Cyril Burse, who is a professional drummer, and he said that at the age of 16 he played with Lew. He is 90 and he is still playing professionally. He is a wonderful drummer.

 

Amazing, is Cyril Burse around here?

 

He lives in Hornchurch.

 

That is incredible that he played with Lew.

 

******Yes for a short time, but Joyce said that she cannot remember him (Lew's wife) so I assumed that he played it during the war you know. I always remember at one time he was playing, whilst we were living in Norwich, he played at the Empire and I spoke to the drummer and he said “I am not really good enough for Lew but the question that I am un-exempt from the Army because a lot of the musicians were the basis of the Squadronaires”, yes yes.

 

Incredible isn’t it. That was the RAF wasn’t it?

 

Yes. I suppose the dance bands, when they played through the second world war, they had very young musicians or much older musicians, because all the younger men were at war. The professional musicians, the really top ones, played with the Squadronaires. They still sound amazing now.

 

Did you do much playing in the war?

 

No, not really, no. The first couple of years I was at Training College for Teachers, that was 1939-1941, then I was in the army. I did play a little in the army, nothing to speak about. I didn’t do anything exciting at all. After I had completed the initial training I did do something with the army band, but it was very little.

 

How long were you in the army for, 2 years? 3?

 

No 2 ½ years. I was sitting in a tent minding my own business when we were hit with a German Artillery and when I woke up in the tent there was nobody there, January 1943. 12 months later, exactly the same date, we went to Egypt, 'Horace’s luck', I think I have a guardian angel. Just before El Alamein, when I joined the regiment they sent me back to Cairo for a course and whilst I was in Cairo El Alamein took place and then by the time I re-joined the regiment they had moved another 1,000 miles west into Tripoli. I joined the regiment January 1st, January 15th we were in action against the Germans and that was when I was injured. Eventually they took me back to Cairo for treatment and then eventually they said I had a broken jaw and they said “You have got to have plastic surgery and don’t think we should attempt it here”, so they sent me back home to England where I had the plastic surgery, and that was me out of the Army. So I resumed my teaching. Then I thought I would like to get a degree, so I wrote to London and it was clear they would not look at me and the somebody said to me, “Why don’t you try Oxford?” and I said “Don’t be a bloody fool, I have got no qualifications” anyway, he said “Go and try”, so I wrote to Oxford and I got an interview and of course by that time, because I wanted to read History they had very few students who could do the art subjects so he said “You get a qualification and we will have you!” I was very lucky the tutor that I rented from was at one time was actually the Vice Principal of the training college that I was at. He was a lovely old man. He had the deepest bass voice you have ever heard and he looked after me and eventually I succeeded in getting a degree. I was a bit cheeky, I hadn’t done history at all at school, I did chemistry and physics instead of history and Latin, oh well, and I got a degree in it.

 

So you remained in teaching all you working life did you?

 

Yes.

 

So when you went to Glasgow, Wolverhampton, that was all teaching was it?

 

Yes

 

Right, right.

 

In Ipswich, it was a secondary modern school in those days, and then I tried to get a Grammar School and I got an appointment as, in those days before the war, you had secondary modern, then you had technical schools and grammar schools. The technical schools were upgraded to grammar schools and I got into one of those. Then Horace’s luck, I got a job for the Malayan Government. They were very short of teachers and they had an idea, you have to remember that in those days there was a British Civil Service running in Malaya, parts of Malaya, and they decided that they would instead of getting teachers to come to Malaya they would send students to England, so they established a college near Liverpool which they felt was very successful, so they then decided that they would then have another college near Wolverhampton where I was living and I was very lucky, they decided to take me on, once again. So funny. The Principal said to me “What do you know about Malayan History”? It was an old boy you couldn’t fool, so I said “I don’t know anything but I can learn”. I found I loved historical research and this is what it was, so I was dealing with all original records which was very nice and I had a wonderful time at the Malayan college at Wolverhampton, but I decided it was about time I should move on so I applied for another College in Brentwood and again, fortunately I got it so I was now at Brentwood Training College until they turned it into a technical college.

 

Were you never interested in becoming a Headteacher at all?

 

I did apply for a Headship at Wolverhampton but nothing came of it. But it was best that way, although I always found I was good at organising. In the end I organised everybody in the department to do all the work and I was running the office. Not quite literally, but near enough.

 

Going back to you being a drummer – who inspired you as a drummer?

 

I don’t think anybody did, it sort of came naturally.

 

Did it? Yes. Because especially with Jazz drumming, that is quite a hard thing isn’t it, you have got the greats like Philly Jones and Blakey and all people like that.

 

Well I don’t know. I was able to satisfy Ken Rattenbury for about 18 months until I moved to Wolverhampton and Brentwood, and I got on quite well with him, so obviously I wasn’t doing anything too badly.

 

Yes fantastic, quite incredible.